LIES

Judy Fox · Post by **Judy Fox** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:55 am

I am sorry Jeff - I agree with you and you are quite right about all you say.

My wording - "it is annoying" - was crass - but in my own defence, I can just see this going on and on and on.

When I said what is done is done is sad - I meant that! I think the whole think is horrendous. And it does make me sad and angry.

Post by **Zhuyos mom** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:31 am

Our site was riddled with these type of threads in 2007. Pretty sad and exhausting. So, I have a question. Are these type of *informative* posts important to post? Does it add value to our site? Quite frankly, I'm not sure why ChowConcerned's postings all seem to want to inflame certain members or the general membership. Unless she crosses the wrong line, it's her right to do so. But back to my question, ARE *THESE* TYPE OF *INFORMATIVES* IMPORTANT TO POST? Does it add value? Yes or No (explanations not requested. Just yes or no answer).

Sharons Chows · Post by **Sharons Chows** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:56 pm

Jeff,

I also agree with your premise...I just cannot stand the way that this post was highjacked by "psuedonyms"...made up "new members."

This poor chow Divot needed a post to honor him and make sure that something this horrendous can maybe be prevented in the future. He didn't need all of these made up people that we have seen time and again that who are not interested in Divots case but only have their own selfish concerns.

You are right ...I have no intention of reading this post again.
Sharon

kiwani · Post by **kiwani** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:03 pm

Re: "Are these type of *informative* posts important to post? Does it add value to our site?"

Yes, it's important to know who shouldn't be getting their hands on any rescues from this site, just as it's important to know who the rotten breeders are.

Re: "I'm not sure why ChowConcerned's postings all seem to want to inflame certain members or the general membership."

You might start here:

http://chowchow.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7738

Jeff&Peks · Post by **Jeff&Peks** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:21 pm

If there was anything good that came out of all this I was impressed with the Texas rescue or who ever it was that kept track of this Chow long after it was gone and I think thats what backfired on the Illinois rescue, They probably thought once they had the chow it was over no one would ever know or care, most likely the way they ran their rescue, once its gone who cares. Now that people know these Chows are kept track of they may think twice the next time. It also shows homes and rescues need to be checked out before the Chow/dog is released to anyone.

cheriekynb · Post by **cheriekynb** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:30 pm

Apparently this is not the first Chow Chow that was adopted out and the Chow attacked the adopter. I was searching through MySpace and ran across a blog describing how a lady adopted a Chow and it attacked her, going for her throat. This too happened in IL. This was a rescue from the same place. The rescue leader condemned the lady who was attacked. Same story, different dog, or is it? The name of the Chow is totally different. Is this just too coincidental?

Desi · Post by **Desi** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:48 pm

Read it.Not going to say anything else,cause might say what I think and that would not be appreciated because the L person might have done something right at some point so we should all be nice to her now .
And of course she didn't even write that letter,just like i never mentioned a gun permit

cheriekynb · Post by **cheriekynb** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:53 pm

Gun permit? What gun permit?

Ya, that's why I didn't post the link or actually say any names..

Tippsy'smom · Post by **Tippsy'smom** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:01 pm

Hey Cherie!

I read the blog but I'm just gonna keep my mouth shut 'cause I don't wanna get blown up on.

Jess

luvchows · Post by **luvchows** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:09 pm

Zhuyos mom, would your question be better served as a different thread with a reference to this thread?

I fostered Angel and then proceeded to adopt her.

Charlotte, may I ask if Illinois Chow Rescue checked vet and personal references, as well as formed a home visit prior to allowing you to foster and adopt Angel, as described on their website? If not, don’t you see that the rescue took a huge gamble that you were, as you seem to be, a decent, responsible person? With those kind of haphazard practices, your Angel could have just as easily ended up in the hands of “not serene” and had a similar fate to Serenity or Gabrielle.

Angel, Going through 3 entropion surgeries with her (me by her side) and Laurie funding all of it.

This is, as it should be. What you describe is not out of the ordinary and should not change the amount of the adoption fee. Illinois Chow Rescue’s website stated that their adoption fees are 175.00. If you are paying anything beyond that, it should be considered a donation, not an adoption fee.

You mention several times that “no other rescue would take” Angel or the TX chows. I think other rescues COULD not take them. You see, a responsible rescuer knows their limits and does not try to go beyond what their physical, financial or emotional limits will allow. Doing so jeopardizes the chows they already have in their care, the new chows coming in, and the rescuer themselves. That does no one any good, especially the chows in need that we can help.

It may be hard to hear, but the reality is we cannot save them all. In rescue, we have to make peace with and accept the fact that we are mere humans. Rescue is a very humbling experience and responsible rescuers realize quickly that there are limits to what we can do. Some personality types seem to enjoy living with drama in their lives and get bored without it, but living in crisis or on the edge all the time is not healthy for the rescued chows or the rescuer.

Jeff&Peks · Post by **Jeff&Peks** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 5:19 pm

cheriekynb wrote:Apparently this is not the first Chow Chow that was adopted out and the Chow attacked the adopter. I was searching through MySpace and ran across a blog describing how a lady adopted a Chow and it attacked her, going for her throat. This too happened in IL. This was a rescue from the same place. The rescue leader condemned the lady who was attacked. Same story, different dog, or is it? The name of the Chow is totally different. Is this just too coincidental?

After owing a Chow and being on this site learning about Chows does anyone really think a Chow would actually attack someone, going for the throat with out reason. Maybe if the Chow had a health or mental problem or the person was the type that thinks snaps, scraps and teething are the same as an all out viscous dog attack then maybe. When I hear these stories of Chows attacking or biting I have to go with the Chow and say the person is either full of it, doesn't know a thing about Chows/dogs or just going for an all out lie to gain sympathy. Even so called biters will come around with a few days of patience. As for shelters and temperament test we all know our beloved little Chows wouldn't last 10 minutes in a Shelter. I could name at least ten Chows on this site including Pekoe that would be declared not adoptable and euthanized the same day they came in.

coleywoley · Post by **coleywoley** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:03 pm

Kiwani do you have a photogenic memory? It amazes me how much knowledge you have and your ability to pull up posts to link for us.
Continue says the people in Texas were not a rescue and going back there was not an option. For a non rescue they sure kept close tabs on divit/divot and tried their best to make sure he was done right by, too bad the IL Chow rescue couldn't be bothered to do the same. Many uf us on here have rescued chows, while we may not be able to run rescues out of our own homes we do what we can to help...adopt from a rescue or shelter, donate funds or items to the rescues that need them.
I am now done responding to pseudo people and their comments.

Post by **Zhuyos mom** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:43 pm

luvchows wrote:Zhuyos mom, would your question be better served as a different thread with a reference to this thread?

Nope. I want it answered and contained on this thread. Where members (mainly member who were not exhausted in the beginning of the year's drama) have voiced their thoughts or opinions on the subject. No need to draw and involve members who did not want to be a part of the thread from the beginning. Clearly they want to stay out of it. Tomorrow will be the 31st of December. A new year will begin the day next and I need to know if the members believe threads opened like this add value to the site. Seems only Kiwani and Jeff have answered my question and others are ignoring it.

Thanks, Kiwani. My fellow moderators and I reviewed that link when we tagged this thread and discussed this thread from its beginnings.

Tippsy'smom · Post by **Tippsy'smom** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:57 pm

This post really is gettin' me really mad... I just say we lock it and move on.

Jess

Laura · Post by **Laura** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:58 pm

I agree with Kiwani...yes it is important to know these things.

Charlotte Paige · Post by **Charlotte Paige** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 7:24 pm

Luana,
No I did not have a home visit before fostering Angel, not defending that but.... with my Liberty... that rescue adopted her out to me after only a conversation (anyone who talks to me on the phone KNOWS the conversation lasted FOREVER)
I do agree with you on the fact that you cannot save them all. I learned that when I was a child. I would cry aand cry and cry to my mother about stray cats, dogs, frogs, turtles, etc, that I would find and want to give them homes. Which is why I have always wanted to be a part of the solution when it came to homeless animals. I volunteered for a few Cat Rescues groups until they stopped calling because I was not able to foster 50 cats in my home. (I know off subject)
I LOVE animals period! I know this is sooooo off base for this thread but, I even have 2 house mice I have raised since they were babies because my neices didnt want their grandmother to kill them (Mity Mouse & Simon)
Did I cry over Divit... yes... quite a bit.
In fact I will never forget him, as I did have the pleasure of actually meeting him.
I do not want to drag this on anymore.. I am going way off subject....
I think all of us agree on one thing here... This was an aweful tragedy and hopefully lessons are learned from this.
Angel, Liberty, Neville & HB PROUD mom (and dont forget the mousers)

Sydney · Post by **Sydney** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 7:24 pm

Yes, It may be ugly, but if you look deep, it's important information and a learning experience. Sure, some of it got heated but that's the passion.

Bottom line, yes, I feel it has a place on this site.

Sydney

chow fancier · Post by **chow fancier** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 7:30 pm

Sorry, didn't mean to ignore the question. Yes I think it is important to be aware of rescues doing harm. I'd like to think that is the intent of allowing this thread.

Do I think some of the comments on here are out of line? Probably, but the passion for chows is what brings me to the forum to begin with so I take those passionate comments as part of the package.

Layla · Post by **Layla** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 7:49 pm

I've not commmented on this thread since my initial response.

It's always interesting to read what people feel is appropriate to say on a public forum. Kiwani is correct, you learn a lot about people's priorities & judgement making skills. Not to mention it exposes the more extreme sections of scoiety, worth being informed about it my opinion.

However, the down side is that these people can simply change username & 'become' a different person the next day so the information becomes less valuble. It also leaves a very corrosive impact on the more regular members which is not conducive to anything. As I have stated before, I feel that being able to post as a guest is unhelpful in this context as well.

Personally, I feel attacking other people (as was the initial purpose of the thread's author) to be unhelpful & doesn't give the forum a good reputation. I never like to see members attacked by others to be honest, but that's just me.

IliamnasQuest · Post by **IliamnasQuest** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 8:59 pm

In my opinion (since you asked) ...

I think that it's vitally important for people to be aware of bad rescues, bad breeders, bad adopters, etc. I think in order to try to make sure that our chows (or ANY breed of dog) have the best possible life that it's important for people to know about these things, regardless of how despicable it is to have to read about them.

The difficult part is knowing truth from gossip, and we each have to sift through the opposing "facts" and find where the truth lays (sometimes inbetween). I know what I find believeable in this thread, and it's not complimentary to the "rescue". I think that they probably did have an occasional adoption that worked out for the dog but that doesn't excuse what happened in this case. Being a rescuer involves giving up a lot - it's not easy in any way (financially, physically, emotionally) to deal with the cast-offs of society and that's exactly what these dogs are. If the cost of a person's home is of huge issue to them over the living creature they're dealing with, then that says volumes about the person's priorities (and what knowledgeable rescuer would turn an unknown rescue dog loose in their house without supervision?? that makes no sense).

So I vote for "yes", we need these threads - and each of us has to make our own choices as to how we respond, especially when in the midst of emotions. Sometimes it's hard not to say exactly what you think.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

Boogie and Linda · Post by **Boogie and Linda** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 9:32 pm

I agree that we do need to be made aware of these things. I wish things like this never happened but unfortunately they do. Awareness is the only way to change things for the future Divots.

debraschow · Post by **debraschow** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:11 am

okay here I go...
On advice of another member of this board I am inserting my 2 cents.....

I haven't gotten into this whole fray about Illinois Chow
Rescue, but I really feel like I need to be heard. I feel like if I go on the thread, I am going to be trashed. And you guys are important to me. Milo came from Illinois Chow rescue. I went thru everything on their site including the visit. I had to find the the person who would approve the visit, my vet volunteered and Laurie accepted. My vet has 7 years with us and our other vet had 18 years with us. Both of them volunteered. The only thing that I didn't get from them is his vet records. But you know what with all the strays we have had over the year I would have started at the beginning anyways, to protect our existing animals. I met Luarie and saw her interact with her animals and the rescues, I graduated from Michigan State University from their Animal Technology Program in 1976. I did not see anything narcissic about Laurie. I don't know all the info about Divot, but why would a rescue in Texas send a chow from Texas to Illinois in the first place.

What concerns me right now, is the last post from Luann, she contacted me shortly after we adopted Milo and asked us what we were going to do about Milos luxated patella. I had no idea what she was talking about and she told me that thru various Chow Rescues Associations she had been informed that Milo had luxated patellas. He hadn't been to the vet and if you look at her signature at that point in time, nothing is said about her being in a chow rescue. I thought she was just another concerned person from this board, so I replied to her PM and told her I wasn't informed about it.So she PM's me back that didn't I think that should have been important, and I told her yes. Long story short, when we took him to our vet, Dr Jossens, He has no luxated patella. You have no idea how many times I asked her to verify that he doesn't have a luxated patella.

I don't know all of the details of Divot and it doesn't make me happy that any dog is put down, but I do have questions why would the rescue in Texas feel a need to send a dog to Illinois? Could they not handle him and push the issue off on someone else.

Also you need to know that Chowconcerned is NOT Laurie, I emailed this person, because I knew specific medical info about Laurie and Chowconcerned can't answer my questions.

So I think this thread is basically Luann who is trying to get egg off of her face, and Chowconcerned who is an interloper.

I think the rabidness of this thread has inflamed people to react with out knowing my story.

Let me know if you need more info, but I really believe this thread has gone waAAAAAAAAAAy off track with no one knowing facts and everyone being condemned for what they believe.

All I know is I ended up with this wonderful boy, who has put smiles on John and I's face. And I do believe that Luann pressed this beyond a knowable limit.

I love this website. I have learned more in the last 4 months than I learned at college.

Jeff&Peks · Post by **Jeff&Peks** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:43 am

Chows and dogs are shipped all over the US and Canada to people wanting to adopt, sending a Chow to Chicago to be adopted has nothing to do with trying to unload a viscous killer Chow on another rescue and I doubt if the Chow was as bad as that, who ever had him in Texas wouldn't have been able to get him out of the shelter in the first place with out warnings and if the Chow was that bad and if it were at a shelter they would have euthanized it themselves and not reliesed it to the Texas shelter or anyone. If the people in Texas were just trying to to get rid of the Chow they wouldn't have wasted thier time tracking it and they sure wouldn't have wasted thier time posting Divot. He would have been gone and forgotten, no one would know a thing about him.

When this post first appeared all people were doing was trying to find the Chow, no one knew it had been dumped at a shelter then killed. Instead of reading peoples reactions to this why not just go back to the beginning and forget these last 3 or 4 threads that were started.

The beginning:

http://chowchow.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8492

I don't know who Guest is that started all this and I'm not trying to defend anyone but the only place I see Luana's name in any of this is her posting a picture of Divot becouse a few of us couldn't see the picture and someone posting an e-mail of hers that had nothing to do with anything, I Don't know why her name keeps coming up unless she was Guest. Go back to the beginning, all I see is a missing Chow that was dumped in a shelter by a rescue then killed, nothing more. Anything other then that is just taking away from the real issue, Divot.

luvchows · Post by **luvchows** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:10 am

Debra, I pm’d you because you expressed concern about Milo getting tired easily. I also explained to you that the rumor on the “chow rescue grapevine” was that Milo had luxating patella, which would have explained his getting tired easily and not wanting to take longer walks. I have copies of our pm’s in which I asked you if Milo had seen a vet during his time w/ Illinois Chow Rescue and you stated that he had no vet records, yet the rescue charged their usual adoption fee. It is standard practice for responsible rescues to start over with all vetting, if they have no proof of prior vet work. If Milo had been seen by a vet during his time in rescue, it is standard practice to give that paperwork to the adopter so that the dog does not have to start over again with shots, heartworm test, etc. Therefore, one has to conclude that Milo did not see a vet during his time with this rescue, but they did charge an adoption fee.

I was trying to extend a helping hand to you and even asked the Harris's to follow up with you to make sure that everything was okay, and to inform you of what you MIGHT be facing. I and other rescue friends even discussed pitching in to help with the cost of surgery if you needed it and suggested using one of our vets, since we get a small discount. Following is an excerpt from my PM to you:

A reputable rescue person will not take on a dog they cannot help and get completely vetted prior to placing in an adoptive home. Passing dogs on without vetting them is NOT rescue!! Without complete paperwork from the previous owner of Milo, the rescue should have taken Milo to their vet for an examination, shots (rabies & Parvo/distemper), heartworm test, and neuter (if not already done) prior to adopting him out. Rescue is NOT about money, it is about helping dogs in need and making sure they are not suffering during the process. What if you could not afford the surgery Milo needs? Where would he be then? This is why dogs are often passed around from person to shelter and back again. The bottom line in rescue should always be about the dog and his or her needs. Not addressing medical problems and then adopting the dogs out gives rescue a bad name and it is not at all what rescue is about.

edited portion of statement

debraschow · Post by **debraschow** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:55 am

Ok here is the point as I see it. Just because I didn't get vet records, doesn't mean that Milo wasn't taken to a vet. And at the time of our discussion, I was not in receipt of the records. I have since received them, but I had already taken Milo to the vet. Milo did NOT have a luxated patella, which caused concern with my husband and I, so I would have preferred not to hear that from you Luann. Again Gossip can be hurtful.

This is what this whole thread is about. Someone named chowconcerned who is not Laurie, started this, Some one who did not have the guts to sign their name (Guest) continued this. The only fact that we know is Divot is gone. We don't know how, why or anything. As I stated earlier I wouldn't be happy about this either, but we don't have the facts, all we have is what the Texas rescue says, and they like anyone else can say what they want, and there is no basis in fact.

NO ONE knows the story and a lady that I met and liked is being crucified by this thread. Can I see a show of hands? How many of you met Laurie? I thought people were innocent till proven guilty.

I think that Zhouyos Mom said it best. This kind of a thread does nothing but inflame, and hurt. I know some of you will say that it is your right. But it is against the law to yell Fire in a movie theater. We are all here for one reason, because we love and admire ChowChows, we should be supporting each other rather than tearing each other down.