Finally..a new baby

Abbiegirl · Post by **Abbiegirl** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:29 pm

Well since someone got to the shelter before me to adopt the chow...I didn't give up and I found a 10 week old chowboy from a breeder and will get him next wednesday. I have a question about something called entropia. My little boy had his eye "tacked" and the vet told the breeder he could have to get another procedure. His mother had it too. Is this something that will go away after treatment? I really like him and he is beautiful. Someone said don't get a dog w/ problems but why not? Hes healthy otherwise and I will take care of him and get him help. He deserves that.

sweetpea · Post by **sweetpea** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:34 pm

I think as long as you are aware of his health issues, you are prepared for it, then if you want to help this little one you should. Cant wait to see the pictures.

TJordan · Post by **TJordan** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:39 pm

Check the health section, Many Entropian sugery topics listed. I certainly wouldn't let that discourage me either.

jacqui · Post by **jacqui** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:40 pm

is he from a breeder?you could ask to see the parents or the mother.alot of chows have entropian.if it corrected its not a huge problem.be careful and good luck!

Dogdad · Post by **Dogdad** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:44 pm

I think it is great the breeder is upfront about the entropian, I would educate myself on the procedure and the cost, and if you can handle it financially, then you should do it. To me dogs are furkids, there are no guarantees just like human kids, you just have to do your best. It sounds like you are a kind and compassionate person. Please keep us posted

Dogdad

coleywoley · Post by **coleywoley** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:46 pm

You are right he deserves that and I think its great that you are willing to do whatever he needs. I also think you were lucky to find a breeder who started the process of taking care of it for you and letting you know what may come up so you could be prepared and not be suprised if surgery is necessary later.

WildThings · Post by **WildThings** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:09 pm

The biggest concern I would have with this pup is the breeder is breeding a bitch that has a known genetic problem. Reputable breeders breed their dogs to better the breed, not to simply fill a niche in the demanding puppy market. From a moral and ethical standpoint, just because the breeder acknowledged the problem before selling the puppies, my money would never go to an irresponsible breeder, it just lets them know that even though they are producing dogs with health problems, people will still buy them, so it really doesn't matter.

Abbiegirl · Post by **Abbiegirl** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:20 pm

I read an article that stated 80% of chows have entropian and that it is heritary. But I would hardly list this as a defect. The way you sound its like the hell with all the animals that have a slight. Its a good thing I guess that I'm an animal lover and can see past the flaw and want to help. Glad I don't have your attitude, but to each his own. Sorry this lil guy didn't "better the breed." Moral and ethics? Your statement shows yours.

JH · Post by JH » Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:17 pm

I'm glad you found yourself another puppy, and hope that everything works out. I had to get one of my chows the surgery to correct his entropia. It is not a big deal to do, but I would recommend doing it as soon as possible depending on how your vet feels about anesthesia for your dog. I wouldn't wait much beyond 5 months to get it done, and have him neutered at the same time.

I do feel compelled to comment on the statement in the previous post. I would have to agree with WildThings that the breeder is not really doing her best to represent the breed in a good light. Knowing that the bitch had entropia, she shouldn't be breeding it. Doing so is what is contributing to the alarmingly high percentage of chows with entropia that you mention reading about in your post.

Her observation was more a commentary on the breeder's ethics than anything else. I certainly don't mean to cause you to feel attacked about pursuing the puppy, and I hope you don't take offense at my comments. Those of us who really want to see the standards of the breed elevated and are trying to live down the bad reputation of the breed are saddened to see people breed animals that have physical and temperament problems.

chow fancier · Post by **chow fancier** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:14 am

All my chows have had entropian and did fine after the surgery. None of mine had to have it repeated; but, I have known of it happening.

After the first surgery heals the vet will want to examine the pup for any signs that it was insufficient. Most obvious, of course, is visible turning in of the eyelids. But frequent tearing, scratches to the cornea and other signs may also be present. I too would urge you to get it taken care of as early as possible. Entropian is painful and can cause permanent damage over time.

As for the breeder: yes, it would be more responsible of him/her not to breed the mother with the genetic defect. However, these puppies are here and need homes; so, I don't find an ethical dilema with you taking one provided you have no intention to breed.

enchantedonyx · Post by **enchantedonyx** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:10 am

chow fancier wrote: As for the breeder: yes, it would be more responsible of him/her not to breed the mother with the genetic defect. However, these puppies are here and need homes; so, I don't find an ethical dilema with you taking one provided you have no intention to breed.

By purchasing one of these pups, the breeder makes money and it reinforces that it's okay to continue to breed dogs with health problems.

As for Wildthing's "attitude", she lives with 3 dogs and 4 cats and every single one of them was a rescue. Far from looking for perfection in a pet, she is trying to help alleviate the problems caused by irresponsible breeding.

jacqui · Post by **jacqui** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:26 am

I'm surprised that some people have little or no knowledge about breeding genetic defects.I totally understand that after seeing a puppy you fall in love and over look a medical problem or two,but if theres one genetic problem there could be many others to come.yes,no puppy is perfect but to buy one from a breeder that is starting of with problems could mean others to come.
does this breeder do ANY health checks?I've had 6 chows and they all have had lots of medical problems.5 of them all from "reputable'breeders.
be careful.I wish you the best.

chow fancier · Post by **chow fancier** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:35 am

Would it be better if the breeder made no money on this litter and so would learn not to breed chows with genetic health problems? Absolutely! Is that likely? IMHO, no.

In spite of all efforts on the parts of many devoted and passionate individuals there is a market for these puppies. So given that, I find it preferable that someone who has made the effort to learn about chows and does not intend to breed take the pup. The most obvious alternative is for the pup to go to a home that intends to breed.

Would I buy a puppy from this litter myself? No, because the puppies will find homes and my passion is the adults that are homeless. I do want the puppies to find knowledgable caregivers; however, and someone who takes the time to read the postings on this site is likely more knowledgable than the average.

I was not intending to dis Wild Things in any way. My upmost apologies that it was seen in that way. I absolutely respect the passion behind bettering the breed. I also have had multiple rescues and am fostering now.

Laura · Post by **Laura** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:48 am

While I understand that breeders should not breed dogs with obvious problems there is a situation here of being between a rock and a hard place. Yes the breeder is wrong but there is still a little puppy who needs a home and through no fault of his own has a medical problem. In a perfect world there would be some sort of program, be it AKC or whoever that could oversee operations and shut down irresponsible breeders but alas we don't live in that perfect world. Yes it is always best to support and purchase from responsible breeders but there are still always going to be puppies from not so great breeders who need good homes. If you don't purchase this puppy then someone else will or God forbid no one will and it will wind up at a shelter or who knows where. The puppy needs a home bad breeder or not. Rather then dismiss the fact that these puppies need homes I think time could be better spent pressuring the AKC and other organizations not to just dole out paperwork on every dog bred by every breeder. Afterall the breeders make their money off that 'akc registration' because it tells the uneducated that they are getting a purebred quality dog when in fact that is not always the case. The 'akc paperwork' is what allows them to charge the big bucks and why the irresponsible breeders are in the business in the first place. The AKC should do alot better job of policing breeders and itself.

luvchows · Post by **luvchows** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:49 am

Here are some chows in shelters and rescues around you, if you would like to reconsider a rescued chow chow:

http://search.petfinder.com/petnote/dis ... id=9540462
Young black male chow in southern IL shelter

http://search.petfinder.com/petnote/dis ... id=3070174

http://search.petfinder.com/petnote/dis ... id=9156427

IliamnasQuest · Post by **IliamnasQuest** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:59 am

I understand completely being enticed in by a cute little chow puppy - there is just not much cuter than a chow pup!

But I have to speak up here too, about the breeder. I'm sure you're going to do whatever you've already decided to do, but you asked about entropion and that points directly to the quality of this "breeder". Breeding a dog that already has entropion is really poor breeding and pretty much shows that the person is popping out puppies simply to make money. When "breeders" do that, they aren't concerned about what they're producing. They aren't concerned that the puppies they produce go through the pain of entropion (which is where the eyelids rub against the eye - a serious condition and YES, a defect). If they're willing to breed a dog that they KNOW has entropion, I doubt that they've checked for any of the other serious genetic problems in the breed.

I would ask her for OFA numbers on hips, elbows and patellas (at the very least) on both sire and dam. This means that she would have had to have them x-rayed (at least for hips and elbows) after the age of two and had the x-rays sent to the Orthopedic Foundation of Animals to be checked for genetic joint diseases. GOOD breeders do this as a matter of course. These are serious, crippling diseases and a person who truly cares about the breed won't breed without having a clear understanding of what's in their lines (genetically, healthwise).

You have no way of knowing if this pup is truly healthy, but if the parents passed a number of health certifications (and ask about the grandparents and great-grandparents, too .. a good breeder knows the health certifications in their lines) then you have a greater likelihood of getting a pup that will be healthy. Some of these genetic problems don't show up until the dog is a year or older. And I'm sure this "breeder" is not the type to refund your money if the dog ends up with crippling hip or elbow dysplasia and has to be euthanized at a young age (like happened with a friend here this past winter).

Like I said, it's hard to turn down a cute puppy. But the reality is that every time we hand money over to a bad "breeder" - and someone who would breed a bitch with entropion is, in my book, a BAD breeder - we're helping to finance further breeding of dogs with serious health problems. It's not just a matter of this one pup and whether or not it needs a home - if she can't sell it and it gets dumped in rescue, it will find a home just fine. The true problem is giving this person money which encourages her to breed again and again.

To answer your question specifically - some dogs need numerous expensive surgeries in order to have the entropion fixed. Some dogs end up with serious ulcers on the eyes and lose their eyesight. Some dogs do fine with a single operation. This IS a serious defect and one that any conscientious breeder works to avoid.

I know this isn't what you wanted to hear, and it has nothing to do with being negative or having attitude. It's a matter of looking at the big picture .. about loving the breed as a whole. If you were getting a pup from a rescue for free and he had these problems, you'd be fully supported in that. But to give money to someone deliberately breeding dogs with genetic health problems - well, that's an entirely different issue.

Good luck to you with whatever you choose, and I hope that if you get this pup that you don't end up back here later talking about other serious health problems.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

Post by **Auddymay** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:23 pm

I am happy you found a Chow, after you lost your sweet Abbie. I know how hard it is, to lose a beloved family member.

What ever you decide to do, don't take it personally that which has been said here. It is not directed to you, but the breeder. Chows have so many problems, it is disheartening to hear about a breeder willing to breed from chows with problems.

The fact is, some of the entropion surgeries can be very expensive. While you may have the cash to fix the problem, there are alwys going to be new chowrents who don't bother, to the misery of the Chow. Many abandoned Chows on pet finder have this problem. I don't think it is coincidence. I think 80% is a high estimation, but the reality of it is, this breeder is adding to the problem, what ever the actual number is.

Chownut · Post by **Chownut** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:30 pm

My little guy ended up with entropian. My vet told me that it is something that can develop as a puppy gets older that does not show up in the parents even though it is genetic.
I had his eye tacked three times before we actually did the surgery. He was about 10 months old when we did the surgery and all is great. He looks great and hasn't had any other problems. It is well worth the money to have it done or they can actually go blind. Good luck to you and enjoy your new addition to your family!

chowchowdaddy · Post by **chowchowdaddy** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:53 pm

Our first chow, Chia, had the entropian surgery and my biggest complaint about it was it hardly seemed fair that she got to have her eyes "done" before I had mine done!!!

Neither of our other two, Ming nor Tempest, have had it but I wouldn't hesitate to get a chow with it. As someone pointed out, nearly 80% of chows can have it to some extent, and the surgery isn't difficult...

Abbiegirl · Post by **Abbiegirl** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:35 pm

He was the only puppy in a liter of 6 that so far has had this. As far as breeding goes, it will never happen with me. I don't breed, period. And yes, I am getting this little guy. Someone had ask a question about hips and elbows, well who can really know what will happen in life. I did try to adopt a chow from a rescue a couple weeks ago and wrote about it here in the forum. It went to another home. I have a cat I adopted 3 years ago from a shelter and I was the third and last home for my Jack Russell I got when she was just 12 weeks..the other 2 homes decided they didn't want her, so yes I do try and help unwanted animals. Do I feel guilty for getting a puppy? Heck no, I don't because the bottom line is this animal is here and needs to be loved. He has this problem with the eye, but otherwise healthy. My Chow Abbie was 9 weeks old when I got her, and I am so thankful for everyday of 11 1/2 years that I had with her. I realize the importance of rescues and thats exactly what I'm doing for this chowboy, for he will have a wonderful life with my family and be loved deeply.

Post by **Zhuyos mom** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:27 pm

Abbiegirl,

Have you seen Desi's new thread in the chows needing a home section?

Rowlee · Post by **Rowlee** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:34 pm

Abbiegirl,

My new little baby Wilbur has had his eyes tacted and he is now fine. There was no history of it in his family as such, just one of those things that happened. The other pups were fine. I certaintly wasn't going to let it stop me from having him. The breeder paid for the surgery. It was done more as a preventative measure. Enjoy your new baby.
Sabina

coleywoley · Post by **coleywoley** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:34 pm

It sounds like Abbiegirl has made her decision regardless of what anyone thinks. So please let me congratulate you on finding a new chow to bring into your home after your loss of abbie.
I do think it is a good thing that this puppy is going to a home prepared to deal with its problems and take care of them rather than someone who will dump it at a shelter once they start having issues.

Laura · Post by **Laura** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:53 pm

I second that. I can't wait to see pics and meet your new baby! I know how it feels to lose the chow love of your life and the joy finding a new love can bring you. This is a happy time so get ready for all the potty trips, chewed up shoes, puppy teeth, and laughter coming your way! Congratulations!