Breeder Arrogance regarding Shumie's death

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bettybloop
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Post by bettybloop »

i'm not really sure of what to think of my breeder. before I got shumie, I read so many great reviews about the breeder. we actually discovered shumie from puppyfind.com. is this not a good source for looking for chows? we read all the reviews, and everyone was satisfied with their chow and several wrote that their chows lived perfectly healthy lives and that they had several chows from this same breeder without any problems. they complemented on the great temperament of their chows from this breeder as well.

our breeder did not give us a contract to sign. should this be a warning sign? i had read ChowMom4Ever's thread on getting a chow without a contract and it seems that a sales contract is a good sign to see if a breeder is reputable or not. however, i guess i just assumed my breeder was good because when I was searching for a chow puppy I realized that several breeders had bought chows from my breeder and had bred these dogs as well.

i've never really known the term "backyard breeder" until recently and it seems that someone who leaves their puppies outside is not a good breeder. however, when I was searching for chow babies a lot of breeders prided themselves on the fact that they let their babies roam free and were not confined to a home.
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pfordeb
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Post by pfordeb »

I'm glad to see your post Betty Bloop. I can't answer your questions about breeders, but I'm still thinking about you.
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kiwani
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Post by kiwani »

Re: "we actually discovered shumie from puppyfind.com. is this not a good source for looking for chows?"

I think many of those breeders aren't that different from those who sell to petshops, except they operate as online store fronts. I think that by law, petstores have to offer some health contract rights to protect buyers, but online sellers do not.
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sit_by_the_beach
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Post by sit_by_the_beach »

I didn't know anything about dogs, chows. I would have gone ahead and bought anything fluffy too. Years ago I attended a country fair. Among the petting zoo was a stall with 4 or 5 adult chows. The woman told me that chow babies are coming up. I had my chow Luna already and wasn't interested in adding another chow. Some years later I found out that this woman was running a puppy mill, she has since retired from the biz of raising chows.
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IliamnasQuest
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Post by IliamnasQuest »

Grab wrote:
IliamnasQuest wrote: Khana eats from an elevated (slightly, on the first step of the stairs) dish because she has a tendency to choke if she eats from the floor - at least she did when she was younger. I had to give her the Heimlich maneuver more than once and that's damn scary too. Once I elevated her dish, she's not choked at all.
no experience with bloat (thankfully), but have you had Khana's esophagus checked? That symptom almost sounds like megaesophagus.
My Ginger had an idiopathic onset a little over a month ago after an illness. She has to eat her food in an elevated bowl(she also has to have canned food into liquid form..as I understand, some dogs do better with liquid and others on solids, simply elevated)
Thanks for the concern - I just now saw this post. I wondered about that too but she's been checked and nothing like that has shown up. She tended to gobble her food and mostly she choked if I didn't stay next to her - I think it's a combination of eating too fast and trying to watch where I am. It only happened with kibble - raw foods never caused her to choke. When I raised her dish with the kibble, it allowed her to watch me better (no more grabbing a mouthful and then swinging her head up to see where I was as she tried to swallow). And she hasn't choked at all for probably the past eight months. She's not eating as frantically these days.

It was good to mention mega-esophagus, though, as it's another health problem that we should all be aware of.

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IliamnasQuest
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Post by IliamnasQuest »

puppyfind.com is kind of the online equivalent of a pet store - most of the breeders who advertise there seem to be the type that are selling puppies primarily as a business/profit type of thing. They rarely do health testing or even know the true background of their lines. Their biggest concern is how much money they can make and they breed accordingly.

I'm going to start a new thread to talk about this. It's unfortunate that it's difficult to find a good breeder and these bad breeders can LOOK so good especially to someone new to the scene. It's a difficult lesson to learn and in your case absolutely heartbreaking.

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for_the_chows
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Post by for_the_chows »

IliamnasQuest wrote:puppyfind.com is kind of the online equivalent of a pet store - most of the breeders who advertise there seem to be the type that are selling puppies primarily as a business/profit type of thing. They rarely do health testing or even know the true background of their lines. Their biggest concern is how much money they can make and they breed accordingly.
Like anything it is up to the consumer to do their homework. This is NOT an accurate portrayal of Puppyfind.com. You can find poor breeders most anywhere, its all in knowing what to look for. Not just where to look.
I found my chow boy with 6+ generations of OFA behind him on puppyfind.com. When I asked about CERF his breeder had not done CERF but didnt hesistate one bit and offered to go have them CERF'd. His breeder has been in chows for 30 years and has just now starting to breed.
Mind what you say in generalizing sites.
IliamnasQuest
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Post by IliamnasQuest »

for the chows wrote:
IliamnasQuest wrote:puppyfind.com is kind of the online equivalent of a pet store - most of the breeders who advertise there seem to be the type that are selling puppies primarily as a business/profit type of thing. They rarely do health testing or even know the true background of their lines. Their biggest concern is how much money they can make and they breed accordingly.
Like anything it is up to the consumer to do their homework. This is NOT an accurate portrayal of Puppyfind.com. You can find poor breeders most anywhere, its all in knowing what to look for. Not just where to look.
I found my chow boy with 6+ generations of OFA behind him on puppyfind.com. When I asked about CERF his breeder had not done CERF but didnt hesistate one bit and offered to go have them CERF'd. His breeder has been in chows for 30 years and has just now starting to breed.
Mind what you say in generalizing sites.
Actually my assessment of puppyfind is absolutely accurate. I didn't say "all" - I said "most" and that's generally what you do find on there. IN all honesty I don't know any decent breeders who would advertise on a site that is so blatantly known as a place for backyard breeders and puppymills to congregate. Perhaps you found a good breeder, but you're saying that the breeder didn't CERF until you requested? With all the eye problems that are rampant in the breed? And when you say "generations of OFA" are you talking JUST hips, or hips/elbows/patellas/thyroid/cardiac too?

By the way - what does "being in chows for 30 years" mean exactly? They've owned some chows along the way? Have they shown? Titled? Done obedience/agility/tracking trials? Therapy dogs? Just owning chows doesn't make you qualify as a breeder - you need to expand, research, study, and be out there making a name for yourself "in chows". If you've simply owned chows for 30 years and suddenly decide to start producing pups, that's not necessarily a good thing. You need to have proven yourself in some way, in my opinion.

Your response (especially coming on here as your very first and so far only post) sounds like a breeder who is defending puppyfind because they advertise there. I researched the site and pretty much only found crappy breeders there. What respectable breeder would want to hang up their shingle alongside of scummy breeders? It just doesn't hold very true.

BUT - even if you ARE legitimate, your experience was an exception and not the general rule. I stand by my assessment of puppyfind. I encourage people to avoid breeders they find there.

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Grab
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Post by Grab »

IliamnasQuest wrote:


Thanks for the concern - I just now saw this post. I wondered about that too but she's been checked and nothing like that has shown up.
Glad you've had it checked. It's not a terribly common ailment, thankfully..or doesn't seem to be. I was familiar with it, but still was a bit surprised when Ginger was diagnosed with it in the midst of her illness. Thankfully, we don't have to do any of the holding her upright, etc that some owners have to. An elevated dish is enough. :)
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pfordeb
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Post by pfordeb »

How are you Betty Bloop?
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JAYGOW1
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Post by JAYGOW1 »

BettyBoop,

Please realize that these 'random' tragedies could happen to anyone.

When Khon passed, I took some real shots from a few posters, and played the "blame game" for a long time.

You loved Shumie with all your heart, and NO ONE can debate that. I hope that you find comfort during this difficult time.
I really miss my purple kisses!!! RIP Bear, my bestest friend EVER !!
7-20-2006

Khon,you were taken WAY too early !
Til we meet again, my friend
3-24-2007
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kitcatak
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Post by kitcatak »

BettyBloop, I am so sorry for your loss. You had a beautiful chowling. Please don't blame yourself. In human babies we have SIDS. Doctors still don't know what causes SIDS although they suggest a few things to lesson the occurance (never let baby sleep on it's tummy, no smoking around baby, etc). I think bloat is the same way. Vet's don't really know the cause, but they offer suggestions. These suggestions are not 100% in either humans or dogs and both things can still occur even if one follows the suggestions to a tee.

You are not to blame. You loved your little fur ball with all your heart and did everything you could to show that love. I hope, when the time is right, you get another chow to love. You have the knowledge and Shumie will alway be with you, in that special chow place in your heart to help you love that puppy when you get it.
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Mia
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Post by Mia »

BettyBloop,

I read the first page of this thread and tears are rolling down my face. I am so sorry and sad for your experience. Don't you dare blame yourself.

I have read so much about bloat and still have no answers as vets and people much more educated in this also do not have answers.

I feed Mia dry food only, no people food, and very few treats. I have raised bowls, do not let her out for 1/2 an hour after eating and always check her and her belly.

I even have a bloat kit and am getting a breeder to show me how to do it.

Still, anything could happen.

And, it scares me to death.

You did the best you could and from your experience many of us will learn and be more aware of bloat.

I am sure it is hard to talk about, but thank you for educating us and your story may save many chows. Mine included!
Mia
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