Breeder: Rhenegade Chows

[RHENEGADE CHOWS]

[quote="Red Dragon"]You think you are being trolled, I think it's the other way around. All I can say is http://www.thewrongpuppy.org/pedigree.htm[/quote
]
Sounded very monopoly to me. To say that any other registry is not good and that one registry is good, coke or pepsi, mcdonalds or home cooked, pick me, pick me. It's not a small majority like you'd like to think. Like you generalize. There are millers in every registry, and I'd wager there are way more in AKC. However, you still haven't answered the question yet now have you....

Next...

[redangie24]

To say that any other registry is not good and that one registry
However, you still haven't answered the question yet now have you....

Next...

1. I think you mean those three not one. (so far mentioned).

2. Neither have you.

[Red Dragon]

It didn't say there was only one good registry, go back and read it. There are respectable registries and those that are not, it listed the respectable registries, and as far as I am concerned in the US there is only the AKC and the UKC, and you don't qualify for either of those with dogs from Bob, nor do they qualify for the CKC (Canadian), or any FCI affiliates.

So type another page in your book of demise!

[IliamnasQuest]

From the UABR website:

Can I register a litter produced by a mix of two different breeds?

As was stated in another post that is how a new breed is created. And if someone hadn't done that same thing (excpet not registerd of course) then the chow may not have existed.
And yes, the AKC has accepted new breeds, how the heck do you think they did that hmmm????? They had to keep records and have it approved etc. None the less the new breed was approved. Don't be so ridiculous. It is the same flipping thing.

Actually you're wrong ... again.

A new breed is not "created" by simply taking one breed and breeding it to the next and having some bogus registry slap a registration number on it. When you take two breeds and mix them, you have a mixed breed dog. A new breed takes many many generations in order to solidify traits. For instance, if they took a certain type of dog that lived in the wilds of Alaska and they wanted to make a "Tundra Hound", they would breed for the specific traits for generation after generation, keeping meticulous records, until they established a group of dogs that - when bred together - produced a consistent predictable type of dog.

When you take two dogs of mixed breeds and breed them together, you get a huge variety of types. That's because the traits have not been carefully bred for to the exclusion of other traits. If you breed a pug and a poodle and get a "puggle", you can't take two first generation puggles, breed them together and get a consistent set of traits. You will get some with one type of coat, some with another, some that look more like poodles, some that looks more like pugs, etc. This is not a BREED. It's simply a mix and it would take many years of dedicated work to create a breed.

But with registries like UABR so willing to register just about anything, who needs to go to the effort of actually creating a breed? They can just mix a couple of breeds, call it some stupid name, say they're "registered dogs" and sell them for big dollars to unsuspecting people who don't know that UABR is a worthless registry.

While AKC definitely has its flaws, they do require a great deal more proof of a breed than merely mixing a couple of breeds together. A new breed has to be well-established and have a parent organization that keeps records and provides stability. They apply as a breed to the AKC and then it's considered for some time before being accepted into the registry. There's just no comparison between this process and "registering" a mixed breed dog. I have nothing against mixed breeds, but c'mon .. UABR just does that in order to rake in more money. It certainly doesn't create respectability.

You have proven the worth of your choice in breeding and registries to us already, so there is really no need to respond. I am well aware that you're not pleased that your fallacies have been pointed out so clearly. And while you may assume that people on a primarily pet forum are gullible and ignorant, in all honesty you've chosen the wrong place to try to come across like you are doing the chow world a favor.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

[kitcatak]

I will start off by admitting that I know very little about breeding animals of any kind. I am not interested in doing it, so I am uneducated in it. I will say that I don't understand why so many people are sticking up for the AKC or any registry.
I received AKC papers for Leo when I got him. I knew I wasn't going to breed him, but I thought about possibly doing some agility with him, but I waited too long and never sent in his papers. According to his pedigree and AKC papers, Leo is pure Chow. Many "breeders" and chow enthusiasts have told me in no uncertain terms that Leo can't possible be pure bred because of his coloring. I was told that his dam must have hooked up with another type of dog when no one was around or somewhere in his line it had to have happened. I was told there are many AKC registered dogs that aren't really purebred because the AKC doesn't verify each litter. That you can say this chow and that chow were bred even though you know some other dog slipped in. What good is any registry or pedigree if this is possible? What good is the pedigree I have for him? Sure, you expect people to be honest, but if they can't even be honest about health testing and such, who can you trust?
Call me naive, call me an amateur, call me late for dinner, but no one is without fault and no club is beyond reproach. We all make mistakes. I will tell you that Leo's mom was 8 months old when he was born. According to the AKC this is the minimum age a bitch can be to still be able to register her pups (I called them personally on this). Abort puppies? Not unless the dog will die while giving birth. That is a horrible thought.

Tracy

[Jeff&Peks]

You notice the breeders can sit in here and post a full page on how they are the best and argue for weeks yet not one breeder has ever posted anything about a Chow needing rescue or having to be rehomed and of course they won't say a word if a Chow is going to be euthanized, those are potential buyers. What kind of minds do you people have talking about standards and AKC approved, you are some sick people., Your no better then Baby breeders that expect welfare to take care of everything. How can you look at Chows like Charlie, Grover, Mr Cheeks, The Colonel and thousands more and insist you are helping the breed. Fricken amazing

[Red Dragon]

Tracy, there are breeders that are not respected just like there are registries that are not respected and to the average person that knows nothing about the breeder or the registry they seem fine, but that is far from the truth. The lineage of the dogs is extremely important in breeding and with a registry like UABR and others like it you don't stand much of a chance of knowing the true lineage.

Take the case of Bob for instance, he was asked to provide DNA on all of the dogs, it is a simple request and the AKC rep does all the work, but Bob must have something to hide because he does not want the AKC to have the DNA on his breeding stock, because then they can trace the tree, if it doesn't match, then Bob gets the boot anyway.

So one would assume that when Bob registers with UABR that there are discrepencies in the tree, this is a problem for someone trying to correctly breed the dogs because they are dealing with bad information.

People have cheated with the AKC many times, and most of the time they have been caught, and now it is the very reason for DNA samples, and it is mandatory after so many litters from each dog. Every system has it's flaws, but the AKC has the least.

[redangie24]

kitcatak--
Next time someone tells you that he cannot possible be purebred tell them to look into genetics. Brindle is not an accepted color for chow-chows but neither is a flesh colored nose and that appears. It is as common as a pure white chow (very rarely seen) but is still present from time to time. Brindle is a recessive gene and will not dominate. Tell them to look into the Kbr gene. Which must be present in both parents in order to produce a brindle puppy.

[Red Dragon]

Jeff, I thought you were going roller blading? Just trying to give the general buying public some information that they should know before purchasing puppies, yes that's right, buying puppies, there are actually more people that pay for a puppy than there are those that will take the free one in need of a home. In fact they are the very people that need to read all of this because the uninformed ones are usually the ones that give them to shelters or dump them off somewhere because they have health or temperament problems and can't afford them or deal with them any longer!

[Jeff&Peks]

So how many more years and how many more Non standard Chow's have to die until you people come up with the perfect robot Chow. These people that you say do the dumping, none of you have a problem selling to them. What's the percentage of Chow Buyers that actually do showing or breeding for the betterment of the breed, Maybe like .5 percent. there are 1500 members on this site and not one of them show except maybe 3 or 4 that do the neighborhood fun shows.

The only problems I see with a Chows temperament or health are the puppies, Not one of these people that adopted a Chow from a rescue or shelter are having any problems except to repair the damage the person looking for perfection caused, after a few trips to the vets , never another problem.,

[janet]

ok i didnt want to reply at all to this post until i just read what jeff said. kuddos to you sir jeff. the most important thing posted on this topic yet. you are my hero. lol.

[IliamnasQuest]

I will start off by admitting that I know very little about breeding animals of any kind. I am not interested in doing it, so I am uneducated in it. I will say that I don't understand why so many people are sticking up for the AKC or any registry.

Call me naive, call me an amateur, call me late for dinner, but no one is without fault and no club is beyond reproach. We all make mistakes. I will tell you that Leo's mom was 8 months old when he was born. According to the AKC this is the minimum age a bitch can be to still be able to register her pups (I called them personally on this). Abort puppies? Not unless the dog will die while giving birth. That is a horrible thought.

Tracy, a registry is (unfortunately) somewhat at the whim of the people who provide the info. If someone has a purebred chow, and they sign the papers that says that they bred their chow to another purebred chow, a registry takes their word for it much of the time. Yes, there are people out there who lie on occasion. DNA testing can prove where the truth is.

While all registries have some discrepancies, there ARE registries who allow much more lenience and those are the registries that many backyard breeders and puppy millers head toward when the major registries kick them out. AKC WILL remove privileges from breeders when they find out they're lying. And then these breeders can go to UABR or APRI or other registries.

Registries ARE important as they keep track of purebred breedings. Without registered dogs, many breeds would become more and more dilute to the point of indiscrimination between some breeds. While we all love our chows, there ARE traits that keep them a chow and not another spitz breed. If the chow were more open faced, longer and lighter in bone, shorter furred and with less pigmentation it could easily start to look like an akita. SMaller and lighter and it will look like a shiba. Stouter and taller and with varied colors it could look like a malemute. We all choose the chow for traits that MAKE it the chow. Without some sort of "regulation" those traits will diminish.

The topic of a young breeding hits home with you because Leo's breeder is related (I believe by marriage). But I am adamantly against breeding a young dog for a number of reasons. To me, allowing a dog to become pregant at her first heat, usually under the age of one, would be like a child getting pregnant at 11 just after starting her period. While abortion may not be an option for some people, I would sure hope that they would take HUGE care not to allow either situation. Having a young dog get pregnant can easily compromise the health of the bitch. And at that age it's unlikely you will see the full temperament or health of that parent and so any problems could be passed on.

Responsible, respectable breeders do NOT allow young bitches to become pregnant. Good breeders do NOT breed without having a full spectrum of genetic health testing done and evaluated by qualified specialists (i.e. Orthopedic Foundation of Animals). This is for the good of the breed as a WHOLE, not for individual animals.

I think Leo is an amazing color and I've always told you so. But personally I don't think his breeders should be breeding again. I know that nothing I say will make a difference in this case, and all I can do is continue to try to educate people who are interested in hearing what I say.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

[chowgrl]

Thank you Jeff for putting the dogs/chows first. I really appreciate you doing that.

A few points I would like to put forward:

1) There needs to be an independent regulatory body (not run by breeders) that has more control over breeders and what they do and how they do it and what standards they should be meeting.

2) By having more onerus standards for breeders, this would hopefully limit breeders to those that truly love the breed and would decrease the number of dogs that are bred, while at the same time improving their health.

3) This would make registered pure breds much more expensive and much less widely available than they are now, thereby making the average person more likely to adopt a rescue, which would help all dogs.

4) These new regulation would include mandatory courses in health testing, breeding, dog care, nutrition etc.

5) The new regulations would include strict policies on doumentation (just as for doctors and nurses) that would include vets, groomers, daycare providers etc, so that when there was a concern, it could be followed up more completely.

6) There should be a fee that breeders have to pay every year that goes to rescues.


What the breeder does affects all of us, so we really need to pay attention to what they are doing and how they are doing it in order to protect the purebreds and provide more resources for all the dogs, purebred and otherwise. I really think that this is also a consumer issue, because breeders are directly and indirectly advertising a higher level of health and soundness in their animals than they are really achieving. I believe breeders and those that provide paid care for animals need to be held to a much higher standard than what they are currently achieiving, and give back much more to the general dog population than they are now.

[RHENEGADE CHOWS]

And you are so gospel aren't you and without any mistakes or flaws.

http://www.akc.org/reg/fss_details.cfm

So UABR calls it designer breeds, AKC calls it foundation stock service... You need just breed your "generic this n that" for a number of years showing pedigree and lineage. Write up a standard for it, give it an origin, and ask that it be recognized and it too will get FULL registration once its approved. And if packaged just right, I bet it would.

As for where that the UABR gets its pedigree information, Mainly AKC studbooks, so you are right, there is no way for them tell if its accurate or not. What a laugh. Do you all seriously think they just pull it out of thier @$$? You sound so fanatatical and brainwashed it is just reallly sad.
See you have been pleased with your registry service you are with. And thats great, I too had all AKC reg dogs before. I didnt have a problem with my registry service then either. I now have both an AKC dog, and UABR reg dogs. And honestly I am so impressed with UABR with what they do and the standards they hold. You want to fault them for saying they will register designer label dogs. They call it what it is. Its not a "rare" breed as some would think. And the same could be don in the Foundation Stock services. I mean, creating a new breed for a specific purpose by "mixing" and you all know that they don't go into a labratory and mix up a few test tubes and laugh and go I found my new breed... they get the new breeds by combing other breeds. They must document these and show legitimacy of those dogs that they used. Once they've done that and named the "new breed" ... well I have already listed the steps ahead and the web page that shows it. Its called a difference in fine wording. But it all boils down to pretty much the same. I mean as soon as AKC accepts them, UABR will register them too, with fulllll rights. So in a way, its (cringe) almost playing follow the leader with "breed standards" but in so many other ways that are shown on thier site to be really great ways, like thier gold lable pets. You can't be a gold label pet breeder and be a puppy mill. You MUST prove you are a responsible breeder.

SO moan all you wish, stomp your feet, As I said before... one is not better than the other. They all have thier flaws...As do people, as do pets, as does most everything... Everything has its uniqueness.

Now getting back to the issue that you have done most excellent job of distracting from and that is so irresponsible on your part, is what is happening to OUR breed (s)

All you have to do is compare... anyone can see its not "natural evolution" and that has been spoken about too. So we know each of who breeds, and breeds for thier chosen look, type, etc. is effecting the breed. So what traits are being bred for that may be causing problems to the breed. That is what I have been trying (and maybe I haven't said it in a manner that was articulate enough) say. Is there something, and I am seeing in the report, MEDICAL and SCIENTIFIC, is there something that any of us are breeding for, or listed in our breed standard, that may be causing harm to our breed... Just look at it, think about. And be honest about it. No one is going to show up at your door and arrest you because you say, if even to yourself, I think some changes are in order.

And all of you who posted on what breeders should be made to do before breeding. You absolutely have your points and they are valid ones.

for those of you mainly interested in the health portions of this email, the below is regarding Bob, breeder of 4 of my furkids.

Ok, I am going to break a bit of confidentiality here. I have been privelaged to have had many conversations with him and SEE his dogs. Of course I don't doubt he would let most people see his dogs, but it was a privelage. How many of you doing rescue, (and I do hope there are many answers to the following with a yes) while driving along a road and see a chow chained to a tree, dirty, filthy, matts hanging off of it, will make a u turn and go back and knock on the persons door and persuade them to let the dog go to you? Who will NOT leave without the dog. And then will keep the dog, NOT FOR BREEDING! but to just KEEP and LOVE the dog for the rest of its life and give it medical attention and a warm dry place to call home the way it should be? Or go to pick up one chow who you know is bad need only to find out there were more and take not one, but 5. And call another person and say, hey I can't take all these, can you help. To not just read on a web page that there is a dog in need, but see there is a dog in need, and do something.

Disagree with is breeding practices if you wish. But he is a great person. and I admire him for the quiet rescue he does. He doesn't tell anyone or get awards or kudos. He honestly doesn't even feel welcome to come on here and post just because there are radicals who attack like they have done to me. You say all people are welcome here, but the minute an idea is different than that of an overly (so many words could go here) zealous person, they are left to feel NOT welcome, less a chow parent than another.

Disagree his breeding practices, disagree with mine for that matter I have admitted my mistake, and corrected it with Latte. its called progress) But find some common ground and don't be so mean. Open a line of communication and truly find out who a PERSON is and what thier CHOWS mean to them.
Everyone have a really chowful day

[Sojourner11]

You notice the breeders can sit in here and post a full page on how they are the best and argue for weeks yet not one breeder has ever posted anything about a Chow needing rescue or having to be rehomed and of course they won't say a word if a Chow is going to be euthanized, those are potential buyers. What kind of minds do you people have talking about standards and AKC approved, you are some sick people., Your no better then Baby breeders that expect welfare to take care of everything. How can you look at Chows like Charlie, Grover, Mr Cheeks, The Colonel and thousands more and insist you are helping the breed. Fricken amazing

Exactly! It all comes down to a pound of flesh for a pound of gold. While I despise Govt. regulation, I'm now leaning toward having breeders be only "not for profit" entities and even regulating the price they can charge. Hit them in the pocket book and we'll really see how much they really love the breed.

And no, you don't see any of you so called "chow loving" slave traders step up and help with any of these rescue cases. While you might tell us how you take any of yours back blah blah blah....what about those truly in need?

Here is a mantra you breeders should start chanting "I am part of the problem, I am not part of the solution. Making more Chows for my own personal profit is wrong. Until the epidemic of homeless and abused Chows subsides I will stop BS'ing myself into thinking what I am doing is a good thing."

Keep this in mind also, when you get $$$$$ for a puppy, it makes people like Carla realize they can get $$$$$ for puppies too.

Monkey see, monkey do...get it?!

[janet]

well said sojouner.

[j72]

Hi Melanie... Yep, Leo was born of my sister's chows. For the record, she did NOT breed them. It was her first heat and there were no signs of it, they were on vacation and left the dogs in her mother in laws care and SURPRISE! This wasn't done for money and they certainly didn't intend it to happen, it was a mistake. They made the choice to keep the puppies, and the people that the puppies went to were family or family friends that they trusted and knew would give them wonderful homes with love and responsible care. The only cost to the new families was the care of the puppies up to the point that they took them home. It was not planned, but it did happen and from that point they did everything they could to be responsible and care for the puppies as well as Lola.
I understand that it would be irresponsible to PURPOSELY do this... but my sister is not a professional breeder, so you'll have to pardon her for being uneducated about exactly WHEN Lola would have her first heat, especially since three days before they left she had been at the vet for a check up and she said nothing about it.
You know this story, so please don't attack my sister again, and don't act like this was something she did for money or on purpose. She would never intentionally compromise the health of her dogs, and when it did happen Lola was in the vets all the time getting multiple ultrasounds and making sure that she was doing okay... after the puppies came she was also taken in for constant check ups to make sure that she was recovering well.
I certainly would agree that intentionally putting your dogs health at risk is deplorable... but this IS NOT the case. And now, almost two years later, Lola is thriving happy and very very healthy. Oscar (dad) has been neutered so there will be no more oopses.
So they were uneducated and didn't realize she was going to have her first heat, but persecuting them and implying that she did this on purpose for money is unacceptable.
I agree that health and temperment are the most important things to consider and yes, you've just hit home with me on insinuating that my sister would damage her precious girl just for some extra cash.
I would never think it was okay for someone to breed they're girl under year ON PURPOSE...

[Auddymay]

I have not read every post, what with Rhen using the quote button for every one of her posts. It is too wordy, and redundant to keep re-reading what I already read. Anyway, I think Melanie is referring to Rhenagade when she uses the accidents happened excuse. Rhenagade is putting herself out there as a professional breeder, but is not acknowledging that a good breeder doesn't have 2 accidental breedings of a young bitch, then turns around and breeds her on purpose. There is no defense for the 3rd breeding.

People who dabble in chow breeding will indeed run into accidental breedings. The drive to reproduce is strong, and most folks just aren't prepared. Which is how Leo came about. He is beautiful. But the owner of Leo's sire and dam was correct to not re-breed these parents. I have to commend them, there are some out there who would try for a repeat and sell them as rare designer Chows for good money. That is how the standard gets corrupted. My Lily is beautiful. But no way should she be bred, nor her parents to each other. Yet I know for a fact that Lily's mom has spit out at least 2 more litters, maybe 3 since I got Lily. Lily will be 2 in June.

[kitcatak]

I think Leo is an amazing color and I've always told you so. But personally I don't think his breeders should be breeding again. I know that nothing I say will make a difference in this case, and all I can do is continue to try to educate people who are interested in hearing what I say.

Melanie, yes, you have always told me you liked Leo's coloring and I appreciate that Why is it that you don't think Leo's breeders should breed again? They really aren't breeders, they had an accident. That is the only litter that Lola has ever had and her owner was scared to death. Things happen in life (and I know of 2 12 yr old girls here in town that ARE pregnant). If Leo's breeder was just in it for the money, she would have had lots of puppies over the last 18 months, but that wasn't the case. Also, I paid the same amount to get Leo as my mother just paid for her rescue pomeranian.

Yes, there are responsible breeders that are in the busniness to keep the chow a chow and make them as healthy as possible. I guess they are kind of like Scientists, mixing this and that to get it just right. There are also those of us that just want a chow puppy to love. Here in Alaska, as you know, there are not a lot of chows in rescue and they usually aren't puppies. The rescue's in the lower 48 usually won't adopt to us because we are too far away and they can't check up on us. If not for the mistake that Leo's breeder made, I would have never had a chow puppy (or any puppy most likely) to love.

I really think this post is just going around in circles. I believe that most of the posters here agree on the same issues, they just are arguing the semantics.

Too many people are breeding chows for a look and not taking into consideration the effects that look is having on the dog itself. It would be wonderful to have 100% healthy chows with no hip or elbow problems, no thyroid issues, no breathing issues, heart issues on the cancers they are prone too. It would also be wonderful if we could have those same issues resolved in humans.

Tracy

[Sojourner11]

*Disclaimer to last post*

IF the availability of Chows already in need were to subside and hopefully one day end, AND I wanted to start with a puppy, I would consult those Chow breeder/trainer professionals here who have shown a genuine love for the breed, not as a money maker but as a part of their own family.

[RHENEGADE CHOWS]

So how many more years and how many more Non standard Chow's have to die until you people come up with the perfect robot Chow. These people that you say do the dumping, none of you have a problem selling to them. What's the percentage of Chow Buyers that actually do showing or breeding for the betterment of the breed, Maybe like .5 percent. there are 1500 members on this site and not one of them show except maybe 3 or 4 that do the neighborhood fun shows.

The only problems I see with a Chows temperament or health are the puppies, Not one of these people that adopted a Chow from a rescue or shelter are having any problems except to repair the damage the person looking for perfection caused, after a few trips to the vets , never another problem.,

I know I am not on your good list, but I so 100% agree with absolutely EVERYTHING you just said. It is one reason when I do have a litter, I screen my buyers, I microchip puppies, I provide so much information to them. The reason most people give up puppies, is housebreaking, chewing, nipping, not being ready. Not realizing that puppies grow up, and get big and need grooming and attnetion. And I provide so much info on this to them I think I overload them I keep in contact with my puppy parents whether they like it or not. I put them out on contracts. And yes if anyone asks about breeding they pretty much get the third degree from me, much like ya'll have to me I must say. So I do get it. And if if they have never even heard of OFA or CERF or thyroid testing I let them know they have a lot to learn, and most of it is just the minimal stuff so they don't end up breeding something that will give some heartache from, early death, going blind, biting a child, hip operations, on and on and on... But anyways. I wont keep you as I have already to show my intentions and I must not be doing a very good job of it with some people.. with others I am so glad you could read through my long winded attempts.

cheers

[Judy Fox]

Good Grief - I have been in the Crown Court all day - I come home and find this is still rampaging on.
Hasn't everybody got bored yet!

[RHENEGADE CHOWS]

Hi Melanie... Yep, Leo was born of my sister's chows. For the record, she did NOT breed them. It was her first heat and there were no signs of it, they were on vacation and left the dogs in her mother in laws care and SURPRISE! This wasn't done for money and they certainly didn't intend it to happen, it was a mistake. They made the choice to keep the puppies, and the people that the puppies went to were family or family friends that they trusted and knew would give them wonderful homes with love and responsible care. The only cost to the new families was the care of the puppies up to the point that they took them home. It was not planned, but it did happen and from that point they did everything they could to be responsible and care for the puppies as well as Lola.
I understand that it would be irresponsible to PURPOSELY do this... but my sister is not a professional breeder, so you'll have to pardon her for being uneducated about exactly WHEN Lola would have her first heat, especially since three days before they left she had been at the vet for a check up and she said nothing about it.
You know this story, so please don't attack my sister again, and don't act like this was something she did for money or on purpose. She would never intentionally compromise the health of her dogs, and when it did happen Lola was in the vets all the time getting multiple ultrasounds and making sure that she was doing okay... after the puppies came she was also taken in for constant check ups to make sure that she was recovering well.
I certainly would agree that intentionally putting your dogs health at risk is deplorable... but this IS NOT the case. And now, almost two years later, Lola is thriving happy and very very healthy. Oscar (dad) has been neutered so there will be no more oopses.
So they were uneducated and didn't realize she was going to have her first heat, but persecuting them and implying that she did this on purpose for money is unacceptable.
I agree that health and temperment are the most important things to consider and yes, you've just hit home with me on insinuating that my sister would damage her precious girl just for some extra cash.
I would never think it was okay for someone to breed they're girl under year ON PURPOSE...

Yeah Jennifer you see, she will be forgiven, because you are welcomed here. I being pregnant and having difficult pregnancy and definatly not wanting any puppies and Not seeing her first heat as she too showed no signs. I am name called and blasted etc etc. And when I took precautions with her during her 2nd heat and asked that my neigbors not put them in together when we were on vacation in England, for which I have the proof, but nobody even wants to see because then they'd have to believe me and God forbid I would actually be seen as human, I too am to blame no matter what. Your family member will be forgiven, I will be forever labelled. Even if I did not hide the info and make it available having nothing to hide. And I too gave away 2 of the puppys from the first litter and made sure that other 3 puppy parents knew the risk. And I didnt make $$$$$ as they said. I sold them for $275 EACH. And the puppys had a well puppy check up and so did Belle, She had a check up a few weeks after, I guess reading your post I didnt mention it, I wasn't exactly going play by play, but now someone will most definately say I am copying... I can't win with those who have Made up thier mind. For those who know it's possible and want the proof, I can give you all I have.. I can scan my passport, and scan my plane stubs. So that leaves the fact that Belle is pregnant now. If I hadn't had her tested and the results be most excellent (NOT CERTIFICATIONS YET, I am NOT saying that) Bliss has had one so far his Eye test) this breeding not only wouldn't have happened I'd have fixed them, contacted puppy parents so they'd know, and yes, I would have looked another pair. That is being honest. (I didnt get Latte, or Micah until after Belle had her 2nd litter) And I gave away one of Belle's 2nd litter puppys too. anyways.. I have once again, tried to relate.
And I am still looking for pictures of the pie bald chows. They were and are most controvsial.

[RHENEGADE CHOWS]

Good Grief - I have been in the Crown Court all day - I come home and find this is still rampaging on.
Hasn't everybody got bored yet!

Shouldn't you be watching Eastenders? Go have your tea and large spoonful of marmite, and come back in a few hours.

[TJordan]

I don't think personal attacks will help your cause on bit!