Breeder: Rhenegade Chows

RHENEGADE CHOWS · Post by **RHENEGADE CHOWS** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:34 am

Yeah! Merlin it warms my herat that you and another on here can see the light. I know its not just me, There are private conversations that go on, but no one ever wants to speak up. I knew before I ever opened my mouth what would happen and the scrutany I would be put under and how my mistakes would be flaunted for everyones amusement just to try to cast light away from what the real topic is. It was something I was and am finally ready to put myself through so the truth will be told and heard. Even if those who have been given the facts and chose to ignore it, I will be pleased with what I have done, because I have stood up for what is right. I am sure these few peoples public comments are quite mild compared to what I will receive privately. Bob for example has been told that people like him should be shot. They compare him to a puppy mill for the shear number of dogs he has, not taking into account the few numbers he actually breeds. See his dogs live so long he has Great grandparents etc on his site. They are not all kenneled either, and those in his kennel are indoors and So well taken care of. Not on harsh gravel, but on soft ,I think it was very finely chopped saw dust, very fine, almost sand like, ground. The puppies had heating lamps and warm blankets and a concrete slab with an slight incline to drain away pee immediately. And it wasn't filled to the brim with poo. It had a nights worth if that and he was quite anxious to get in and start taking care of business however I was taking his time

There are people who say its so wrong to breed puppys for "money/profit" but yet they end up doing the same and then say to others that it goes toward showing and food and the vet, and this and that, and they actually lose money. Seriously, I have NEVER met a show breeder who actually lost money when selling a puppy for $1K or more. Even those who are C-Sectioned. If they count thier shows and handlers etc, then maybe, but that is part of thier hobby, and they are pretty much selling a puppy to continue that hobby, isn't that profit? I mean they aren't being sold from a not for profit organization are they? If they aren't then it is for profit, to cover the bills and needs of thier hobby and home. So what is so wrong if someone does in a responsible manner? What is so taboo? This is getting a bit aside from my topic here of how dogs are bred to be something that they were never meant to be, but it should be said too.
I take excellent care of my dogs, I focus on them and my children. I have 5 children. I have the tests lined up for both of my current breeders and my future ones. I just got back from the vet this morning who did a good twice over on Ember. I tell her my goals for the puppy and she is first to tell me if a puppy is not for breeding. Micah, my AKC male from the champions... She thought she had found a level 2 heart murmor on him and immediately said. "RETURN HIM." I told her about his worms that he expelled after I got him home... He was in sad shape, and she said "ohhhh." Lets put him on a rigourous dose of Pyrantel pamoate, and see how is in 2 weeks it could be an echo I am hearing."
Done, 2 weeks later, it was gone. No heart problems at all. The point of sharing this, is she doesn't "play me up." She tells me how it is like it is and is total agreement with me not breeding for the standard. Actually she was so relieved. Even more relieved when I pulled out my copy of "the price of a pedigree." She was the one I called sobbing to when Gade died and I found him dead in the run. He went out for the morning to play in his run as he was a house dog, and after lunch I went to get him back in, he'd only been out for 2 hours, and he was dead. Can you imagine my heartache that he died alone. And so young. He was only 7. He had had his heartworm tests, and up to date on everything. They wanted to autopsy him, I could not bring myself to let them cut him up. It wasn't going to happen. And when I came to lists and places like this for comfort and sollace, I was told, "he lived a long time." "he had a good long life." It shocked me. But then I thought about all the dogs that I heard about for years that died young from this or that, or just died, and all the very sick ones, And in a vast majority of the dogs and bitches stories being told it was not the "pet quaility chows" it was the "show quality, or breed standard breedable or not." The worst issues I heard of and had first hand experience with from "pet chows" was HD. And that isn't in all of them as led to believe. ..

I am going to cut this short as I have lots to do and a family to tend to, and dogs to tend to. But again, Thank you for supporting the effort to get the word out about what is being done to chows via a created unnatural standard.
http://www.advocatesforanimals.org.uk/p ... digree.pdf

Red Dragon · Post by **Red Dragon** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:56 am

Carla,

Melanie and I don't aggree very often, but you are screaming puppy mill so loud my ears hurt!

And talk about BLAH! BLAH! BLAH!, you really should stop where you are, because you have shown nothing but how irresponsable you are, how little you know, and how little you will contribute to the Chow.

As for OFA, they have guidelines set and for good reason, that is what they feel appropriate ages for certification. Eyes can be checked on young puppies, 3 months old or even younger. Thyroid, Cardiac, and Patella can be checked after a year of age, and usually if there is a problem it will have already shown itself by a year of age. Sometimes the thyroid can go off later, but not that often. Prelims can be done at anytime on hips and elbows, on a Chow it is best to wait until 14 months, which is still plenty early unless you are a puppy mill breeding puppies to get puppies! Two years on hips and elbows for certification. All of those need to be checked on a Chow because they are the most common problems.

If you don't like the current US Chow standard, breed to the one from the early 1900's, or breed to the English standard, or pick another standard from another country that suites you, but you need to breed to a standard. There are things in the standard that make a Chow a Chow and distinguish it from all else. Some of it is how the breeder views it, but most of it is set in stone. There are things I do not like about the modern US Chow standard, like the original word "Cobby" was taken out, and replaced by "Elegant", in my opinion there is nothing elegant about a correct Chow, they are a rugged cobby dog.

Since Melanie is slinging titles around, I will throw one in, my girl Red Dragon's Feng Po-Po received her International Chamionship this weekend, she received V1 ratings in all four shows, they are the highest rating you can get. She also placed in the groups every show and beat numerous AKC Champions, Specialty winners, and some dogs with titles longer than their names. Here are the results.

Show #1 Group 1, and Reserve Best In Show Bred By Exhibitor
Show #2 Group 2
Show #3 Group 3
Show #4 Group 1

RHENEGADE CHOWS · Post by **RHENEGADE CHOWS** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:48 am

IliamnasQuest wrote:
RHENEGADE CHOWS wrote:I do not intened to breed "a lot." as you say. I have produced 2 litters in the last 15 years. Oh wow, thats really overdoing it... sarcasm.
I did check out your website, such that it is, including the puppy page. I was stating facts, and the fact is that you produced two litters in the past YEAR and both were with young stock that should not have been bred.

I am well aware of one female from a few years back that was perfect, she got her championship, and the owner constantly got flack for even showing her. "You are showing a pet," I would hear said to her and about her.
I am not speaking of things I have no knowledge of. I have been there and heard the gossip and so forth. So please don't go trying to sugar coat what really goes on. I have been there, and done that. Its not ridiculous, have you bothered to read or do the research, or are you just too scared to even bother to look at the facts?
Your point is obscure. So you listen to gossip. So you're overly concerned with what someone said about a dog that earned a championship but was called a "pet". SO WHAT. As I said in my previous post, there ARE some overdone chows out there. There are also some underdone chows (so to speak). There's a balance in the middle that many breeders are striving for and it doesn't mean that they can't SHOW them or should be badmouthed because they do. You are not some special breeder .. believe me, with the huge mistakes you've made SO far, you're not even on the respectable side of breeding. You have lofty ideals but you're floating FAR below them at this point.

Belle my dear went into a silent heat. The first sign we knew she was in heat, was when my son said "Mom there is something wrong with the dogs they are stuck together." <snip> Her 2nd litter, That was a result when we were in England, and I have the dates to prove it, she was being kept by friends so was Bliss, and were told explicitly NOT to put the two together that week.
You have lots of excuses .. I know I've heard these same sort of excuses given by other BYB's who just had "ooops" litters too .. and yet they sold those puppies .. hmmmmm ... you were unable to notice a bitch go through the 6-9 days of proestrus and it wasn't until your bitch was in standing heat and actually tied to a dog that you realized she was in heat. That's your first excuse. The second excuse is that, even though the dates probably indicated your bitch would soon go into her next heat cycle (and you'd already had ONE supposedly "ooops" litter) you left her and the male conveniently together with friends who weren't observant or knowledgeable enough to keep them separated. And after she already had too litters at a very young age, you CHOOSE to breed her on her third heat cycle in a row even though she is not yet even old enough to certify through OFA for her health tests.

Can you see why your actions completely dismiss any truth that may be hidden?

And yes we did do a preliminary screening of her hips. I have not sent them into OFA as it was for me and my vet to look at it. Her hips are great. I can't wait to send her next shots off to OFA. I am so proud of them, they are of excellent quality thank you.
Hips are only a small part of it, and a regular vet is not qualified to truly judge hip x-rays anyhow (nor are you). Chows are running around 47% when it comes to elbow dysplasia and a good percentage also have luxating patellas. You talk about how you're GOING to have these tests done but meanwhile you've bred this bitch three times - and as far as I can tell, to an male who also has no OFA certifications. I'm sorry, but you fit the definition of a BYB. Plain and simple.

And by the way ... you may want to find a better vet. Good vets are not typically going to encourage someone to breed a young bitch for a third time in a row, especially when the health certs are not done. But just think .. if she produces five puppies every litter and you breed her every heat cycle until she's 6 or 7, you may have 60 puppies you can sell and have some $30K in income! I'm sure that's not even crossed your mind.

You obviously didnt read much on me proving my dogs, as I am,
You're right, I didn't read anything on your proving your dogs. Please, elucidate! how exactly ARE you proving them? Have they certified in some sort of athletic ability? Do they show herding instinct? Are they even temperament tested? Are they therapy dogs? Do they work in weight pull? I already know how you are about showing in conformation, so surely you are going overboard in some other venue to truly prove that YOUR chows are better than others and worthy of being bred so frequently.

I stay on all papers until they have completed all tests. And yes that does make me a hipocrit with this last breeding of Belle, but I can be a hipocrit,
I guess I don't need to add to that .. *L*

A former vet tech eh. And you are blind to the facts that the re wrote, now 20 year old, chow chow standard has not improved the breed but actually givin it so many problems.
I'm not blind to anything - and I don't generalize about everyone the way you do. I don't generalize that all show champions must be terrible dogs because that's completely ridiculous and shows a great deal of ignorance on YOUR part. As I said, there are definitely some overdone chows out there. I don't like them myself. But there are very nice moderate chows earning championships and that's becoming more popular all the time. Badmouthing show breeders doesn't help your cause a BIT. The chow standard is, unfortunately, open to much interpretation and some allowed it to sway into a realm that was not particularly healthy for their chows. But not everyone has done that. My chows are not overdone by any means. They breathe well and move well (as is evidenced by their ability to earn performance titles, including agility). Two of them are from show breeders. My last one I purchased after spending time looking for the proper style .. a chow that was moderately open, healthy, athletic, intelligent, and had an exquisite temperament. And she could also earn a championship, IF I chose to pursue that. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Thats rich as AKC had someone register a cat with them a few years back. And UABR went in for me when I had one buyer bounce a check and they wouldnt return phone calls, they were so personable in putting a hold on her papers and microchip.
Ahhh, I see. You've found a registry that will assist you in your endeavors so of course you will support it even though the registry is used in good part by unscrupulous breeders who are unable to register their dogs with AKC, CKC, etc. Any registry that encourages designer dog breeding .. and allows a person to register without a pedigree ... is an extremely poor example of a registry. And those using such a registry are, in essence, showing us all what kind of quality they're producing. If you ever want to be taken seriously, you should do better than UABR.

And if you are trying to tell me that most BYB's who don't test or screen or breed dogs and bitches who don't have good bites hips, coats etc are UABR thats a laugh.
Well, YOU'RE using UABR .. *LOL* ..

And if you haven't had experience with them personally, you really shouldn't comment. It is a personal choice. And given the choice I did chose.
I can go on their website and read their FAQ's and all the sordid truth is right there in black and white. And you made that CHOICE? Whew-boy, it's amazing that you call yourself a breeder.

I am properly health testing thank you, we are just waiting on the clock ticking to OFA. You can't get those OFA's (except thyroid and my vet put those off) until they turn 2. I can't make the clock tick any faster.
Proper health testing would mean certifying PRIOR to breeding. And the thyroid and patellas can be done at a year of age through OFA (as can the cardiac, I believe) .. yet you still don't have them done either.

I really doubt that many will take you seriously until you straighten up and do things right. You came on here like a bellowing bull, blaming all the world's sins on show breeders and championships .. talking about how YOU are doing all these RIGHT things and yet it's been shown that you've made mistake after mistake and then choose to breed again. You can talk all you want, but if you're not going to lead by example then not many are going to listen.

Personally I wouldn't recommend anyone to buy a dog from you. You may have been around chows for 15 years (as have I - and training and showing for nearly 20) but you've only been breeding for the past year and all the breedings have been wrong. Talking big and yet doing the wrong thing doesn't get you anywhere. If you truly want to make a mark on the world of the chows, then you need to calm down, think logically, post clearly and honestly, and QUIT breeding until you have a grasp on how things SHOULD be done.

I have no doubt that most of those reading this forum will not have a problem forming reasonable opinions of someone who breeds a young bitch on three consecutive heat cycles.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

I have really struck a nerve with you. Im so glad.

See I knew when I brought the facts to the table about "the price of a pedigree." http://www.advocatesforanimals.org.uk/p ... digree.pdf , that it would completely set many people off. Some in good ways, but calling it out is exactly what I am doing. And I haven't bred anything for the past 15 years till now, because I didnt own anything till now worth breeding, even if the last 2 breedings were accidental. But you love that don't you. You can't even fathem with proof that they were accidental, you are just glad there is something in my record to give you steam. So go for it, point, call me a name, try to label me, I am not trying to fit in, I am trying to make a difference and bring attention to an very unjust standard that no one can give me a straight answer on.

If you wish to keep focusing on me and what happened and point and say "Look Look, Look what she did, then do it all you wish, it just gives me a bigger platform to stand on." sometimes even negative attention for your cause can in turn generate positive attention toward a cause.

SO I will say it one more time as I clearly am not hiding anything.. I mean its so funny you act like you have "found" something about on me and are so excited, For goodness sake I put the info on the page, I put the link to the site. I never had to do that. So again, what am I hiding? Did I come on here advertising puppies? Hmmm.. Nope.
And I really don't care if you believe me about Belles first heat or not, a bitch can go into a silent heat. And she did. And yes, silent or not, it does ultimately fall on me. Oh gosh where do you go now? It's twice I have said it.

Be made, call me a BYB all you wish. Do it fast and try to make a diverstion. Oh if it wasnt so funny It would be so sad.
Oh and as for Dogs and thier lifespan, I know of a few of the dogs of the same lineage that went to Virginia Holland and Jennifer Belin, although Jennifer sent the bitch back to the breeder and the Breeder used her, without certifying her and she was under 2 but everyone who knew her as she was well known in CCCI didnt think twice of it. That bitch died when she was only 3ish.

You aren't wearing me down, I will continue what I am doing

And you still haven't answerd my question, nor has anyone else, which is how has the current standard improved the breed health wise or in any other way?

Any takers?

RHENEGADE CHOWS · Post by **RHENEGADE CHOWS** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:53 am

Red Dragon wrote:Carla,

Melanie and I don't aggree very often, but you are screaming puppy mill so loud my ears hurt!

And talk about BLAH! BLAH! BLAH!, you really should stop where you are, because you have shown nothing but how irresponsable you are, how little you know, and how little you will contribute to the Chow.

As for OFA, they have guidelines set and for good reason, that is what they feel appropriate ages for certification. Eyes can be checked on young puppies, 3 months old or even younger. Thyroid, Cardiac, and Patella can be checked after a year of age, and usually if there is a problem it will have already shown itself by a year of age. Sometimes the thyroid can go off later, but not that often. Prelims can be done at anytime on hips and elbows, on a Chow it is best to wait until 14 months, which is still plenty early unless you are a puppy mill breeding puppies to get puppies! Two years on hips and elbows for certification. All of those need to be checked on a Chow because they are the most common problems.

If you don't like the current US Chow standard, breed to the one from the early 1900's, or breed to the English standard, or pick another standard from another country that suites you, but you need to breed to a standard. There are things in the standard that make a Chow a Chow and distinguish it from all else. Some of it is how the breeder views it, but most of it is set in stone. There are things I do not like about the modern US Chow standard, like the original word "Cobby" was taken out, and replaced by "Elegant", in my opinion there is nothing elegant about a correct Chow, they are a rugged cobby dog.

Since Melanie is slinging titles around, I will throw one in, my girl Red Dragon's Feng Po-Po received her International Chamionship this weekend, she received V1 ratings in all four shows, they are the highest rating you can get. She also placed in the groups every show and beat numerous AKC Champions, Specialty winners, and some dogs with titles longer than their names. Here are the results.

Show #1 Group 1, and Reserve Best In Show Bred By Exhibitor
Show #2 Group 2
Show #3 Group 3
Show #4 Group 1

You still havent answerd the question now have you?
Define Puppy mill. No I dont fit the bill. 2 litters (accidental ones. 2nd I can prove. First is only at what I say,want airplane stubs I can certainly scan them in you like) And again, why would I have put out all my info plain as day if I didnt want anyone to see it? explain that one. Oh I am not intitled to mistakes you all that are breeding or plan to breed a dog for show conformation are in my opinion and that of many in the medical and scientific community making even bigger mistakes. You think that a title can forgive you of it.
Answer the question, how is the current standard improved the breed health wise or in any other way?

Red Dragon · Post by **Red Dragon** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:57 am

I think the question here is " how are you going to improve the breed by breeding litters with no health checks"???? If you think you have hit a nerve with me you are mistaken, all I see is a pathetic attempt at luring people to buy puppies from you, that's my opinion of your cause anyway.

Red Dragon · Post by **Red Dragon** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:07 am

As for my dogs, if you want to hook your male to any of my bitches and see who is the strongest and most fit, come on down anytime, either PoPo or LuLu can drag them around the block a few times for some warm up laps, you are not talking to someone with messed up dogs, mine are healthy as an Ox and strong as one too.

RHENEGADE CHOWS · Post by **RHENEGADE CHOWS** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:22 am

Sojourner11 wrote:You have tuned in to the CC.ORG breeder smackdown..............

LET'S GET READY TO RRRRUUUUUUMMMMBBBLLLLLLLLLEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!

(Gee Mel, you showed up at the right time didn't you?)

Ok you jumped in, do you have an answer for me? Anything intelligent to add? There is no fight here, I dont have to fight, research done, facts in hand. It's just a matter of getting through to people. Sometimes making a change isn't easy. And I think history also shows that. So really, you will be greatly disapointed if you are looking for a word battle.
As you see, no one has answered me, only tried to divert attention to 2 count them 2 litters that were produced at very un ideal times and way to close. I don't have any disagreement with that. My choice to breed her this go round is a personal one. And when I say I have had her xrayed and hips checked, don't you realize that patellas are in the exray with the hips.... No we didnt shoot the elbows and if you want to try to tell me that most show breeders OFA elbows, patellas and hips... phhht...
You are forgetting I did show, and no one in "my loop" did that.
So again, anyone have an answer? Anyone read the article yet? Anyone researched it further? You all act like I woke up and had nothing better to do. This is important, and you all seriously need to read it, talk to your vet, ask the questions. Compare the two, chows of yesteryear pre mid 80s standard and ask your vet, if both had all the certs, which do you think would still have less problems?

Layla · Post by **Layla** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 11:04 am

I read the article. I thought that it was very very interesting & thank you for posting it.

It is my understanding that the majority of members here love Chows a lot & choose not to be breeders. We like hearing the funny stories of day to day Chow behaviour, seeing the lovely pictures & try to support one another with health, nutrition & grooming issues. Prehaps you can help?

Thanks for the article, again, being informed is always a good thing.

Post by **Auddymay** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 11:09 am

Big Trucker wrote:
It may be late to bring this up...After reading some negative posts about a breeder...has anybody ever had a bad experience with a rescue?...I'm not talking about their policies or paperwork...I'm referring to poor conditions or dogs that died from health issues while at the rescues or heading to a home. I put a post about one but it drew hardly any reaction....I withdrew it because I figured it was too contraversial for this site...was I ever wrong... John

The side of rescue we don't talk about...why do such beautiful animals end up in rescue. The answer is usually hips, elboows, eyes, and other expensive operations. Followed closely by behavior problems. The ugly truth is, a good segment of any purebred dog will have genetics issues. Some more so than others. The very thing these 'Breeders' are debating here. As long as you know you could run into vet bills with any rescue, you won't be horribly surprised when you get a vet expense of 600-6,000 dollars, depending on the deformity.

Let's not mince words. Rhen, you have no business breeding that bitch 3 times in under 2 years. Especially not without basic testing. I don't care where you bought that paperwork from. Your registry is sh1t. BTW, when Melanie mentioned CKC, I am certain the first C stands for Canadian, not Continental.

Anyway, registry prejudice aside, testing is the best way to avoid breeding bad hips to bad hips. What you are doing is voodoo matching. And I have heard you mention nothing but dilutes. You may not agree with the standard when it comes to pigmentation, but even the most basic of genetics knowledge should be screaming that dilute to dilute is wrong, no matter how much pigment you report them having.

Lastly, you would do better to not hit the quote button with every entry. People can follow a thread, and over-use of quoting will just encourage people to skip your postings.

PurpleKisses · Post by **PurpleKisses** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 11:10 am

I notice you quote and respond to everyone elses post, but have nothing to say about mine. Any words? Because my situation sounds alot like what you are going to end up with. Dis satisfied buyers, and chows that are not up to par.

Rogansmommy · Post by **Rogansmommy** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 11:53 am

She hasn't responded to my post either, Summer. Maybe because we're people she can't simply attack? We LIVE with the proof of poor breeding every day. We love our dogs fully and completely, but taking care of a sick animal is a difficult task and it would have been nice to see what Nina and Chingers potential could have been if they had been ethically bred.

RHENEGADE CHOWS · Post by **RHENEGADE CHOWS** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:06 pm

Red Dragon wrote:I think the question here is " how are you going to improve the breed by breeding litters with no health checks"???? If you think you have hit a nerve with me you are mistaken, all I see is a pathetic attempt at luring people to buy puppies from you, that's my opinion of your cause anyway.

ROFLMAO....OMG... rereading....BWAAAHAAAAAAAAAA
You... bwahhhha...sorry.. you really think I am trying to SELL puppies on here.... Oh thats good one.. I needed such a good laugh. (wiping tears from my eyes it was so funny...) Trust me that would be a realllllly bad marketing strategy if I were selling... ohhhhh, hehe... toooooo funny. Ok now actually its not, its sad that all you can try to do to once again is avoid answering the question of How does the current standard make the chows any healthier or any better... and how many times have you replied without an answer, but only a diversion toward the messenger / questioner... The only pathetic attempt here is to desperately try to keep the secret that the standard hasn't in fact improved the breed, according to research I have read, but in fact has caused quite a few problems. That is the only thing that IS pathetic here...Bashing registries, point fingers at a person who has bred 2 litters, waving arms and name callling like mad, but yet no one has an answer...And you call me ignorant? What a hoot. My puppies are not for sale as thier homes have already been picked out, and I have a waiting list. And gosh I DONT take deposits before birth. Thanks though.
your other post regarding dogs draggings dogs around...That is real mature. Whats next, a nener nener?

PurpleKisses · Post by **PurpleKisses** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:20 pm

I don't think standards, per say, have anything to do with health. I think that standards are about looks. I say that because of other breeds. However, I do believe that health testing is a CRUCIAL part in breeding. I used to breed pomeranians, I did not breed to 'standard' because I liked a different look, but I failed also in health testing. I have learned GREATLY from that experience. I am SO VERY LUCKY that I never had any pups with problems. I will still take back any dog that has problems, or take them back for any reason. I will also pay for any medical problems that are found to be a result of my breeding. Luckily, none so far. But I will never put myself in that position again. Do you know how horrible I would feel if one of my poms had the same problems my chow does?? Whether or not it could be proven to come from my lines, the dog is 'defective' (I hate that term) and because I never tested my dogs, I fully stand the chance of that happening. I no longer breed and probably never will. If I do, it would be only with well bred, healthy stock and they would be tested to the hilt so that I could be as prepared as possible. I do not necessarily believe that the standard should be bred for everyone....it is all preference anyway. BUT I do believe that no matter the look of the dog that is bred, the health should be the number one concern (that includes all hereditary/congenital/genetic defects as well as dilution problems due to not knowing genetic colors - that is lack of knowledge and a ignorant thing to ignore just to achieve a look)

RHENEGADE CHOWS · Post by **RHENEGADE CHOWS** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:21 pm

PurpleKisses wrote:I notice you quote and respond to everyone elses post, but have nothing to say about mine. Any words? Because my situation sounds alot like what you are going to end up with. Dis satisfied buyers, and chows that are not up to par.

No, I've been busy I dont sit in front of the laptop all day. Your situation is not anything like mine or my buyers. Did the breeders of your puppy plan at any point to test thier chows? Have they tested them? Have they contacted you with the results? See, I have constant contact with ALL my puppy parents. I keep my nose in thier business and they knew this before they left with the puppies. All but 2 of the buyers have met Belle and Bliss in Person. If I were to find something wrong with Belle and Bliss you can be most certain I would anything I could, even take back thier puppies, refund them and let them keep them, anything I could. And probably as soon as something was found, I would fix Belle and Bliss or which ever had the problem. As you probably have NOT read, I have tested them, just because they dont yet have a certificte from OFA does not mean in any way that they have not been looked at, given a twice over. And just to "prove" anything to you all, I will go ahead and set the date for Belle's CERF for the 2nd time, I will do it closer to her due date so if anything did go wrong at least I would be at one of the best veterinary hospitals on the east coast. As for her actual OFA's as I said, I can't make the clock tick any faster. Its nothing like your story, and wow do I feel for you. I really do and I have been in your shoes. I had a cream boy with severe HD, he bit my son in the face when he was 3. So while I didnt have the OFA's done on them (and have OFA'd all my other chows at 2 in the past) I knew that having prelims done would be good.) The 2nd litter, there was NOTHING I could have done any differently. I had some friends watching them. I have 2 large runs. Belle was in one, and Bliss in the other. We came home they were still in the same runs. It wasn't until I noticed she was pregnant that I questioned them ever being put in the same run. I asked Richard and Ray and said that they did put them together because they thought they'd be lonely. After she whelped, I counted days back, and It occured while I was in England. And I do have the proof of that via A) my passport, and B) plane ticket stubs. So call it an excuse, its not, its an explanation. Ok, the one thing I could have done differently is board them. But why should I have done that? they were home, they were being taken care of, and fed and loved on. You all want to fault me for not having CERT's yet. Go ahead its your perogative, but it is something that my puppy parents know ahead of time, and they also know that I am doing them. putting it on my site, holds me accountable for doing it. And I never say anything I do not mean or can't back up. (Ok, I can't back up Belles silent heat, but my mom, winner of the Ethics in action award) was here the day they tied, and she can most certainly tell you how upset I was. I counted up days and we were both due in the same week. That is NOT something I wanted at all. My daughter had a SUA (single umbilical artery) and there was no way with knowing she could be still born that I would want the stress of puppies at such a critical time. I can't say it enough.
Back to the orignal issue, Anyone have an answer to my question?

And again, I am truly sorry that your dog has to go through what it goes through, and you too, watching it. Preventing such is what I am about, I am so sorry you can't see it that way. Believe what you wish if it makes you feel better. I know better and my puppy parents I guarantee you know better. Mass breeding, its not me either.

bama · Post by **bama** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:35 pm

Excuse me, but I just want to say;
Welcome back Melanie, you have been missed.
Go get 'em tiger!!!

RHENEGADE CHOWS · Post by **RHENEGADE CHOWS** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:42 pm

PurpleKisses wrote:I don't think standards, per say, have anything to do with health. I think that standards are about looks.

Ok, I really mean no disrespect but that is just plain ignorant. Go read the article and it will in detail explain everything to you, and if you have any nurons firing at all, you will "get it."
http://www.advocatesforanimals.org.uk/p ... digree.pdf

I say that because of other breeds.

Other breeds are mentioned in this article too. Not just chows. Actually chows are mentioned in just a couple areas. Standards have changed the looks of the dogs and thus the health of the dog.

However, I do believe that health testing is a CRUCIAL part in breeding. I used to breed pomeranians, I did not breed to 'standard' because I liked a different look, but I failed also in health testing.

Oh my and if you came across some crucial information, would you want people flaming you because you didn't get certifications just yet, but did do health testing and made it known and were moving forward? would you want someone flaming you for it, for the mere fact that you were trying to give people really important iformation that would help you breed and so many others?

I have learned GREATLY from that experience. I am SO VERY LUCKY that I never had any pups with problems. I will still take back any dog that has problems, or take them back for any reason. I will also pay for any medical problems that are found to be a result of my breeding.

And you know, when Belle and Bliss go for thier certifications, if anything is found, I will spay and neuter them so quick, and phone calls and emails will be out. I will reimburse or take back, whatever needs to be done. My puppy parents know this and they know what i went through with Teddy. I would NEVER put a person through that. He was such a great dog, I just wished I hadn't listened to my show dog breeder who advised me strongly to put him down. She did make a good argument for it. Her son had to have plastic surgery because of a severe dog bite from a severely dysplastic boy much like mine. I still regret not trying to help him. Although I was told it would be cruel to do so. young and naive.

Luckily, none so far. But I will never put myself in that position again. Do you know how horrible I would feel if one of my poms had the same problems my chow does?? Whether or not it could be proven to come from my lines, the dog is 'defective' (I hate that term) and because I never tested my dogs,

Well you keep saying it, YOU didnt test. I have, they just DONT HAVE CERTS YETYet being the operative word. I have thier OFA forms filled out already and in the books. and I took them for thier thyroid tests and my vet said there was no need to do that just yet as we would be better to send off both tests at one time, and there was nothing that gave any indication that they do have thyroid problems.

I fully stand the chance of that happening. I no longer breed and probably never will. If I do, it would be only with well bred, healthy stock and they would be tested to the hilt so that I could be as prepared as possible. I do not necessarily believe that the standard should be bred for everyone....it is all preference anyway. BUT I do believe that no matter the look of the dog that is bred, the health should be the number one concern

and we have that in common. (careful shivering)

(that includes all hereditary/congenital/genetic defects as well as dilution problems due to not knowing genetic colors - that is lack of knowledge and a ignorant thing to ignore just to achieve a look)

And if 5 colors were not acceptable theywouldnt have 5 colors, and they were not intended to be in 5 colors, then "nature" "God" , you name it wouldn't have made it possible. And what in Gods name makes YOU think I breed for a certain color? I got 2 dogs I liked! MY PREFERENCE. Why should I breed a color that I didnt want ot get at that time. I did finally get a red girl when I saw one i liked... A really really dark dark self red girl. She is 7 weeks and 3 days old, I got her when she was 7 weeks old. I drove over 1800 miles round trip to get her. She is so special and has such a fabulous personality. I took her into the vet today for a once over. She is fantastic. So from here out we just let her grow, socialize her, and when she is 3 months I get her CERF done, and when I can do Micah, Latte, and Ember I will get all thier thyroid tests done at one time and send off. Thier x ray prelims are done at 12 mo and OFA certs are done at 2 years.

So tell me, what part of anything that I am doing is it exactly that you have a problem with?

Not knowing my bitch was in heat the first time? Having my neighbors put them together the 2nd time? or me chosing ot breed after tests but no certs the 3rd time?
And NO I do not intend to breed her every heat as someone so said I didnt even wish to comment on that.

So again, you really need to read this http://www.advocatesforanimals.org.uk/p ... digree.pdf
all of it.

RHENEGADE CHOWS · Post by **RHENEGADE CHOWS** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:48 pm

Ok somehow most of my post ended up in yours.. I am not the best at the quote thing on this forum.

I don't think standards, per say, have anything to do with health. I think that standards are about looks.

Ok, I really mean no disrespect but that is just plain ignorant. Go read the article and it will in detail explain everything to you, and if you have any nurons firing at all, you will "get it."
http://www.advocatesforanimals.org.uk/p ... digree.pdf

Other breeds are mentioned in this article too. Not just chows. Actually chows are mentioned in just a couple areas. Standards have changed the looks of the dogs and thus the health of the dog.

Oh my and if you came across some crucial information, would you want people flaming you because you didn't get certifications just yet, but did do health testing and made it known and were moving forward? would you want someone flaming you for it, for the mere fact that you were trying to give people really important iformation that would help you breed and so many others?

And you know, when Belle and Bliss go for thier certifications, if anything is found, I will spay and neuter them so quick, and phone calls and emails will be out. I will reimburse or take back, whatever needs to be done. My puppy parents know this and they know what i went through with Teddy. I would NEVER put a person through that. He was such a great dog, I just wished I hadn't listened to my show dog breeder who advised me strongly to put him down. She did make a good argument for it. Her son had to have plastic surgery because of a severe dog bite from a severely dysplastic boy much like mine. I still regret not trying to help him. Although I was told it would be cruel to do so. young and naive.

Well you keep saying it, YOU didnt test. I have, they just DONT HAVE CERTS YETYet being the operative word. I have thier OFA forms filled out already and in the books. and I took them for thier thyroid tests and my vet said there was no need to do that just yet as we would be better to send off both tests at one time, and there was nothing that gave any indication that they do have thyroid problems.

and we have that in common. (careful shivering)

And if 5 colors were not acceptable theywouldnt have 5 colors, and they were not intended to be in 5 colors, then "nature" "God" , you name it wouldn't have made it possible. And what in Gods name makes YOU think I breed for a certain color? I got 2 dogs I liked! MY PREFERENCE. Why should I breed a color that I didnt want ot get at that time. I did finally get a red girl when I saw one i liked... A really really dark dark self red girl. She is 7 weeks and 3 days old, I got her when she was 7 weeks old. I drove over 1800 miles round trip to get her. She is so special and has such a fabulous personality. I took her into the vet today for a once over. She is fantastic. So from here out we just let her grow, socialize her, and when she is 3 months I get her CERF done, and when I can do Micah, Latte, and Ember I will get all thier thyroid tests done at one time and send off. Thier x ray prelims are done at 12 mo and OFA certs are done at 2 years.

So tell me, what part of anything that I am doing is it exactly that you have a problem with?

Not knowing my bitch was in heat the first time? Having my neighbors put them together the 2nd time? or me chosing ot breed after tests but no certs the 3rd time?
And NO I do not intend to breed her every heat as someone so said I didnt even wish to comment on that. [/b]So again, you really need to read this http://www.advocatesforanimals.org.uk/p ... digree.pdf
all of it.

Sojourner11 · Post by **Sojourner11** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:53 pm

RHENEGADE CHOWS wrote:
Sojourner11 wrote:You have tuned in to the CC.ORG breeder smackdown..............

LET'S GET READY TO RRRRUUUUUUMMMMBBBLLLLLLLLLEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!

(Gee Mel, you showed up at the right time didn't you?)
Ok you jumped in, do you have an answer for me? Anything intelligent to add? There is no fight here, I dont have to fight, research done, facts in hand. It's just a matter of getting through to people. Sometimes making a change isn't easy. And I think history also shows that. So really, you will be greatly disapointed if you are looking for a word battle.
As you see, no one has answered me, only tried to divert attention to 2 count them 2 litters that were produced at very un ideal times and way to close. I don't have any disagreement with that. My choice to breed her this go round is a personal one. And when I say I have had her xrayed and hips checked, don't you realize that patellas are in the exray with the hips.... No we didnt shoot the elbows and if you want to try to tell me that most show breeders OFA elbows, patellas and hips... phhht...
You are forgetting I did show, and no one in "my loop" did that.
So again, anyone have an answer? Anyone read the article yet? Anyone researched it further? You all act like I woke up and had nothing better to do. This is important, and you all seriously need to read it, talk to your vet, ask the questions. Compare the two, chows of yesteryear pre mid 80s standard and ask your vet, if both had all the certs, which do you think would still have less problems?

Yes, I have a reply to your question. Do you think any Chow, being drug off to a gas chamber, or a when its being held down and injected with some "pink stuff", or tied to a tree for it's whole life, neglected, abused and unloved gives a flying *Censored Word* about yours or anybody else's "standards" theory?

STOP BREEDING DOGS *Censored Word*!!!!!!

PurpleKisses · Post by **PurpleKisses** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:53 pm

I actually PM'd you before you posted this....please read it.

I did not mean that the health of the dog was not compromised due to the looks of a 'standard' I just meant that the 'standard' is set for looks, with little regard to the actual health.....I say that because of other breeds.

Miscommunication on that part. I think that 'standards' have ruined alot of breeds.

As far as the dilutions and colors go....I do not think that there is necessarily a problem provided you are educated on what you are doing. Certain colors shouldn't be mixed or it can cause fatal results or at least a different version of a poorly bred chow. It just depends on how much research you invest into it.

Oh, and one more thing.....you would not believe the crap I got about my poms.......hun, this is NOTHING!!! Trust me. This forum is nothing compared to others when it comes to bashing.......

RHENEGADE CHOWS · Post by **RHENEGADE CHOWS** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:55 pm

Layla wrote:I read the article. I thought that it was very very interesting & thank you for posting it.

It is my understanding that the majority of members here love Chows a lot & choose not to be breeders. We like hearing the funny stories of day to day Chow behaviour, seeing the lovely pictures & try to support one another with health, nutrition & grooming issues. Prehaps you can help?

Thanks for the article, again, being informed is always a good thing.

Thanks Layla.

I'd love nothing more than to open up and "be nice." however I knew when I came into this forum with a purpose that I wouldn't be making friends immediately. It's ok, the article needs to circulate, people need to learn. I knew I'd get flamed and its ok, because I was ready for it. I can own up to my mistakes or else I wouldn't have "advertised them." on my website by putting dates and the fact that certifications hadn't been made YET. I guess adding that they have been tested will require another page as I didnt have enough room to write most of what I put on there. It's on the meet my chow chows page, and on the Puppy's page... again, thank you and I am glad you read it, pass it on, if you have other friends in other breeds please pass it on. You know sometimes it takes the least likely person to put you in check. To say, hey, you have strayed, get back on track. And you know I have made mistakes, I am human, however I am learning from my mistakes.

RHENEGADE CHOWS · Post by **RHENEGADE CHOWS** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 1:10 pm

Sojourner11 wrote:
RHENEGADE CHOWS wrote:
Sojourner11 wrote:You have tuned in to the CC.ORG breeder smackdown..............

LET'S GET READY TO RRRRUUUUUUMMMMBBBLLLLLLLLLEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!

(Gee Mel, you showed up at the right time didn't you?)
Ok you jumped in, do you have an answer for me? Anything intelligent to add? There is no fight here, I dont have to fight, research done, facts in hand. It's just a matter of getting through to people. Sometimes making a change isn't easy. And I think history also shows that. So really, you will be greatly disapointed if you are looking for a word battle.
As you see, no one has answered me, only tried to divert attention to 2 count them 2 litters that were produced at very un ideal times and way to close. I don't have any disagreement with that. My choice to breed her this go round is a personal one. And when I say I have had her xrayed and hips checked, don't you realize that patellas are in the exray with the hips.... No we didnt shoot the elbows and if you want to try to tell me that most show breeders OFA elbows, patellas and hips... phhht...
You are forgetting I did show, and no one in "my loop" did that.
So again, anyone have an answer? Anyone read the article yet? Anyone researched it further? You all act like I woke up and had nothing better to do. This is important, and you all seriously need to read it, talk to your vet, ask the questions. Compare the two, chows of yesteryear pre mid 80s standard and ask your vet, if both had all the certs, which do you think would still have less problems?
Yes, I have a reply to your question. Do you think any Chow, being drug off to a gas chamber, or a when its being held down and injected with some "pink stuff", or tied to a tree for it's whole life, neglected, abused and unloved gives a flying *Censored Word* about yours or anybody else's "standards" theory?

STOP BREEDING DOGS *Censored Word*!!!!!!

And the puppys I have bred, will never know that. You obviously have not read my puppy page or encountered me as a breeder talking to a "buyer." I'm not exactly "sure I have puppys how many?" I tend to go GRrrrrrr on them, and find out why, and how many dogs they have had, and what happened to them, and do they have a fenced yard, and I microchip my pups before they go so. they are not allowed to a pound, and MY NAME AND ADDRESS are linked to every puppy, so if a puppy goes to a pound shelter or is lost, they call the owner first and then me. And I take no more responsibility for animals that are sheltered (now that is I used rescue long story) than I would for children in orphanages because I have 5 children. I take care of my own. I applaud all the people who do an can take on others responsiblities that they neglected. Its very sad.

RHENEGADE CHOWS · Post by **RHENEGADE CHOWS** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 1:11 pm

PurpleKisses wrote:I actually PM'd you before you posted this....please read it.

I did not mean that the health of the dog was not compromised due to the looks of a 'standard' I just meant that the 'standard' is set for looks, with little regard to the actual health.....I say that because of other breeds.

Miscommunication on that part. I think that 'standards' have ruined alot of breeds.

As far as the dilutions and colors go....I do not think that there is necessarily a problem provided you are educated on what you are doing. Certain colors shouldn't be mixed or it can cause fatal results or at least a different version of a poorly bred chow. It just depends on how much research you invest into it.

Oh, and one more thing.....you would not believe the crap I got about my poms.......hun, this is NOTHING!!! Trust me. This forum is nothing compared to others when it comes to bashing.......

Hey sorry, I don't know what a PM is... can you try again.
thanks.

RHENEGADE CHOWS · Post by **RHENEGADE CHOWS** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 1:16 pm

PurpleKisses wrote:I actually PM'd you before you posted this....please read it.

I did not mean that the health of the dog was not compromised due to the looks of a 'standard' I just meant that the 'standard' is set for looks, with little regard to the actual health.....I say that because of other breeds.

Miscommunication on that part. I think that 'standards' have ruined alot of breeds.

As far as the dilutions and colors go....I do not think that there is necessarily a problem provided you are educated on what you are doing. Certain colors shouldn't be mixed or it can cause fatal results or at least a different version of a poorly bred chow. It just depends on how much research you invest into it.

Oh, and one more thing.....you would not believe the crap I got about my poms.......hun, this is NOTHING!!! Trust me. This forum is nothing compared to others when it comes to bashing.......

Thanks, I found the PM.. sorry... I am really new to this forum.

Well thank you for the kind private email...I will keep it private. I appreciate your comments. thanks

I really am so totally sincere, and if I weren't I wouldn't have stayed here this long, and I really don't plan on going anywhere, no matter how many people don't get it at first. Take care of your boy and I am so sorry you have to go through what you have with him.. for the both of you.

PurpleKisses · Post by **PurpleKisses** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 1:16 pm

A PM is a private message........check the top right of your screen, it will say you have # new messages.

kitcatak · Post by **kitcatak** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 1:34 pm

Wow, pretty heated discussion from such an innocent question!

I am not going to comment on the whole BYB thing, as my definition of a backyard breeder does not fit in with the consensus of this board. My Leo is the product of a silent heat from a BYB and I don't have a single bad thing to say about him or his breeder. Does Leo have issues? Yep. He had entropian and he is brindle (he couldn't decide which of the 5 colors to be and picked them all!! lol)

I don't see any benefit to the "modern" chow, either. Leo is the size and build of the older style, original chows. He is very powerful and strong. I hooked him up to my kids sled this winter and he pulled them with ease (until the leash slipped and he left them behind!! lol) I love his open face, his long legs and his 100% chow attitude. I feel the "new" chow is doing a diservice to the chow chow as a whole. They are taking away from the regalness of the chow chow and making him into a puff. Some people like puff I guess, but chows are too dignified for that.

I know many of you are saying Carla is a BYB, maybe this is a bad thing to you. I can't see her site right now (it is blocked from my work computer) but from what she has said here I would buy a pup from her (if she would have me). I am not looking for a puppy at this time, but I like the looks of her dogs on the first page of her site (the only one I can get to). I also like what she says is in her contracts. Leo's parents were health tested, but not certified. I wasn't looking for a show dog, I was looking for a family member. Yes, the entropian was scary to deal with, but so are things that happen to my human kids.

Just my 2 cents (or less!!

)