Breeder: Rhenegade Chows

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Re: Breeders: What to Look For?

Postby RHENEGADE CHOWS » Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:47 am

I have been quiet for way too long, and listening to peoples brainwashed oppinions has finally got me to this point.
Lets talk about "Breeders." BYB's and R.B.s... and the standard. Lets start where most discussions should start, at the beginning. Who here has pictures of past champions from the early 1900's? Anyone have any antique chow sculptures from the early 1900’s or before? Anyone? If you can, get “the book of the chow chow” by Dr Samuel Draper and joan mcdonald brearley. Look at the images in the first 50+pages. This is history. This is the chow for last 3000 years Or least as far back as can be recorded by early photography and paintings. The earliest chow images are sculptures. Then start looking at chow images from the late 60’s into the 70’s. Especially English Champion Ukwong King Solomon. Start comparing images from there after to the photos of the early champions. Ok, so you have some images.. Ok, look at most of the current day champions and the chow’s of yesteryear, put the two images side by side. Do you see the same breed? Do you really think the modern chows are "better." Do you really? Do you really think that the heavier bones, and the heavier heads, and shorter muzzle are "good" for the breeds health? Really. If so please, by all means I encourage EACH OF YOU, breeder, non breeder, pet owner, loves dogs but doesnt have pets, anyone, I encourage you to read this http://www.advocatesforanimals.org.uk/p ... digree.pdf .
Way back when I was at the beginning of my brainwashing, oops I mean showing, I was told all about how my boy was a "Pet." spay him! And what to look for... Oh man, they didnt look like chows. Pretty, but didnt look like what I knew a chow to be. It didnt seem "right." They had breathing problems. I inquired about it. Oh yes, I was told, they have short stops. You must be so careful with anesthesia, and intubation. And then there is the eyes. Why do thier eyes look like that, Well you must be careful about entropian, it happens alot I was told. (my boy could breath fine thanks, and didnt have runny eyes.) And there was the heavy bone and stiffness. Don't let them jump off the couch, they could hurt themselves, and tear a ligament, and thats expensive I was told. Be careful not to feed beef, they have allergies and will get hot spots. Ok... so in all this I was wondering, where is the healthy part of this chow that was suppose to make it so much better. All it seemed to me was that people had created a beautiful walking topiary, filled with issues. A true drama. beautiful and sad. Don't let them whelp naturally, you are asking for trouble. Why I would ask? Because the heads are too big to pass in most cases I was told. Too big to pass, isn't that gods way of saying you have messed with MY FORMULA this isn't right.
Why was this done? Anyone want to speak up and tell me why was the standard that was wrote in, what was it 86 or 87, why was it sooooo much of an improvement for the breed? Anyone want to tell me how that a shorter stop, and heavier bone, and ...and... the list goes on and on... is so much better? Hmm.. lets compare the two. The "originals" as I love to call them, had a nice square form, and stiff hocks but not extremely heavy, and not extremely fine. They had nice dense coats but not so long as to overheat the dog. The face did not have so much extra skin that it interfered with the eyes. The muzzle was not so short that it created a wheezing raspy breathing chow. Ok, so now some of you are ticked... I am questioning your chow chow bible and it hurts. Look in your heart. Do you really honestly think if left to breed on thier own without AI and "selective" breeding (I need a heavier headed dog with a shorter back to breed to my bitch... blah blah blah) that they would look like the standard today, or the chows of yesteryear?
Ok, I am all for health, and for the record, you bet I am a breeder. I invite you to question me. Go for it. Do you think that the breeders 60 years ago had to worry about intuabation and anesthesia because thier chows would have to have it because of surgery for a cruciate ligament problem, or to have thier eyes tacked, or be c sectioned? The answer to that is a simple one. Lets talk average life expectancy. Every single one of my SHOW DOGS, from excellent pedigrees, and yes I will name names and that is sure to stir the pot, died under the age of 8. UNDER THE AGE of 8... and I was told Oh they lived a good life, and 7 is pretty average. That is what I was told. The problems I had with them was unreal. Cushings, thyroid, (all did pass thier OFA exams). Now when Gade passed, he had NO issues. He just died. He just died... no heartworm, no medical reason found...He just died and he took a bit of me with him. He died of a design flaw. See he wasn’t built the way that dogs are suppose to be built. (and for those of you living in your own world that say that chow’s aren’t dogs. Spare me the drama ok. They are dogs.) Call it the last straw to turning a blind eye. Breed blind. Listening the garbage. I wont have it. You can "believe what you wish." but the facts are before you. Its up to each of you to read, and do something. Be mad, be angry, get upset with me and send me nasty mail all you wish. I didnt make the breed what it has become and I will NEVER breed for the chow chow standard of today. My dogs have passed thier CERF tests. And they are set for thier OFA Hips elbows and patellas in August. I will most certainly post the results. Thyroid tests are being done at the same time. These have been set up for quite some time.
As for screening buyers, I have turned down more people than you can imagine. I microchip, and go to quite a bit of fuss over my babies. I keep constant contact with each puppy parent. I help with any problems. When Gade died I was chowless. He died July 27, 05. Ok, but I say I am a breeder, where did I get my chows. Well my mom said pick your chow, you can have anything you want. I sought out the best of the best and found the number 1 or 2 chow in the country and was set to get a puppy from him. And I immediately smacked myself.. what was I doing? I knew it was not right, I knew the problems that was intailed and I knew the bitch was going to be c sectioned. It didnt take more than a day for me to unbrainwash myself and search for the originals. Someone who cared and had good quailty chows that lived a long life. I found them. I hear that folks have been bad mouthing him. And I tell you, I have never seen anyone who loves his chows like he does. I recently went to visit him and he LOVES having people come visit the crew, and I was totally in awe of all the chows. He has some, ok not some, many many very old chows. He walkes through and tells me about each one. Ones he took back because they were no longer wanted or were abused, Ones he went and rescued in the form of buying because they were in a very unhealthy condition, Ones he cant and wont breed but that couldn't leave where they were. So who is this super breeder? Its Bob Twedt. Does he OFA? No...His vet is a former AKC show judge. He has very accurate records and genuinely cares about his puppies and where they go. I may do things a little differently from him, but that is because I do have something to prove.
Ok so naming names, My boy Gade was Domar Rhenegades Wild Thang OFAG. He was out of Ch. Mandi’s Mighty Maverick of Domar OFAG. Those names don’t sound familiar?How about this one, Mavericks dad is BISS Ch Linnchow Cinbad. Ok, so most of you “show breeders.” May have heard of him, or at the Linnchow line. Dr Joanne Obriens line, that of which is decendent of one of the first and oldest chow kennels in the country that belonged to her parents.( Verify in “The Book of the chow chow” by Dr Sam Draper. First mention of her in acknowledgements on page 6. ) Then the other half of Gades pedigree is mostly Koby, and Kiebler, which is decendent of Pandee. (you can also find more about Pandee in the same book. And I had a boy who only had a life expectancy of 1 year and lived to be 2, and he too was mostly Koby and Kiebler. All my show dogs were Linebred with very little outcrossing. Oh its terrible to Outcross I was told. You may bring in unwanted traits that may have been way out in the grand parents and great grandparents, its not good. Not just one person mentored me in this line of thinking but many. I can’t even count the number of extremely rude and arrogant people I cam across in trying to learn more, and I am sure a lot of those people will be reading this (hello you didn’t run me off). It was such a cult like click. I mean, so many people were telling me this, how could they be wrong? I really could go on and on, and drop more names and kennels but I think I have made my point that I have aquantence with people who were suppose to be at the top of their game, breeding to better the breed and showing to win. It all boils down to brainwashing. When you believe something for long enough, you can’t see truth, even it is panting in your face. Think of it like this. We humans have changed so much about this world only to find out at a critical point that we need to move in a different direction. Even if that direction is backwards its still a new forwards. We smoke and learn it causes lung cancer, we use too much fossil fuel and find out we are killing our planet. We are given facts and then we change things, or at least some of us do, many others are just so used to the way things are they can’t seem to try make an effort and don’t want to, they are fine with how things are for them. Its time we all read the facts on something so simple, and did something so simple but so huge, change what we are doing to our breed(s.) It’s not just chows this is happening to, but this is “my” chosen breed and so I am speaking up in this forum on the issue. Especially since it all relates to breeding and finding a good breeder, or in this case finding a good healthy dog to lick our faces till they leave us at a ripe old age.

I am on a mission to change the conception of what is and isn't a good breeder. A good breeder equates to more than just testing thier dogs/health clearance with a good vet, and taking back unwanted pups of any age, and finding good forever homes to start with, but they put the true health of the breed first, not a written description that goes with the flow of unquestioning masses, that in my oppinion and that of many others in the scientific and medical community, is setting standards that go in the wrong direction. It's human to make mistakes, its ingnorance to conitue them when they are brought to your attention. I hope I have your attention. Read. Educate. Make a difference. Get mad even, at least I have you thinking.

(ps if too many people visit my web site at one time, it will pretty much seize, so if you wish to check me out, and find that it’s not working, try another day.) 

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Postby redangie24 » Mon Apr 09, 2007 9:08 am

Yes I am familiar with the chows of the past. In fact here I go talking about it, and posted some pictures.
http://www.chowchow.org/forum/viewtopic ... highlight=

To be a RB you need not prove your line through showing you can do the same through obedience and agility. This would be ideal for dogs bred to look like the "originals." As long as you health screen your chows and do not do excessive breeding there is no reason why anyone would include you with the BYB I don't know why you would think that... is there some other reason you would be included in the BYB category. But it is important to prove your dogs. Agility and obedience and temperament are best in your case. I agree with you on cross breeding as long as you are diligent in checking history of the new chows being brought in.
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One question

Postby BigTrucker » Mon Apr 09, 2007 9:42 am

It may be late to bring this up...After reading some negative posts about a breeder...has anybody ever had a bad experience with a rescue?...I'm not talking about their policies or paperwork...I'm referring to poor conditions or dogs that died from health issues while at the rescues or heading to a home. I put a post about one but it drew hardly any reaction....I withdrew it because I figured it was too contraversial for this site...was I ever wrong. Bottom Line as many have said...there are good and bad breeders....the same thing applies with the rescues. However you hardly hear about it. I think that too much is said without really looking into it. People are very firm in their beliefs...which in some cases, narrows their mind. You don't have to support either breeders or rescues...but it would be nice if they could co-exist without such hard retaliations. Each side has something good to bring to the table. I don't think the "bad ones" would even participate on ths site. Their to busy to field such arguments...and they seek a low profile. When a breeder responds...its a good thing...just as it would be if a rescue post something. Let them have a level playing field. Can't we just get along :lol:

John

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Postby RHENEGADE CHOWS » Mon Apr 09, 2007 12:33 pm

The welfare of the breed, and the health of my dogs is all I or anyone has to prove. To produce dogs that will have a LONG healthy life free of the likely of any eye, thyroid, hip, elbow and patella problems from having an overdone head, too short a stop, too heavy of bones, and a coat way to long and thick or too tight crossbreeding. I know its the american way to have things OTT but when people throw their compulsion onto animals to make them "better" when they weren't broke in the first place its sick. And then you find the breeders (not all) of these (for legal purposes, in my opinion) overdone anomolies, putting everyone down who doesn't follow suit with the same.To treat a dog and the way it looks like it was last years model and to try to improve it to look like something else. Oh I know, you all have heard this before, don't forget, I was one of you. I have heard it all. On how ignorant people like ME are for not understanding that the breed standard is there to better the breed. However no one has stood up to say how it has made it better now have they. They can't. The facts speak for themselves.
READ the article, do the research, LOOK at history, educate, and make a change. http://www.advocatesforanimals.org.uk/p ... digree.pdf

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Postby Jeff&Peks » Mon Apr 09, 2007 12:55 pm

yeah what Renegade said, I don't like standards, especially when the standards are changed to fit the show people., its all for the amusement of the Chow hobbyist. Everyone has been blaming the BYB for everything that goes on with a Chow but its the so called good breeders that are creating the problems by trying to turn out this years model. From the first day I came on this site the way people talked about breeders it always make's me think of Dr. Moreau And Dr Frankinstien. Dr. Mareu's breeding service, I well breed to fit your needs.

I like the name , Sounds like a good name for the type of Chow rescue Bubba wants to open.
“...There comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular, but one must take it because conscience tells one that it is right.” MLK

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Postby redangie24 » Mon Apr 09, 2007 1:34 pm

RHENEGADE CHOWS- Learn to read. I said you did not have to live up to show standards that there are other ways of proving you line. Through agility, obidence and temperment and you are showing that your dogs can do what they were meant to do. That they do not have breathing problems that keep them from being able to run etc. You can say that your chows are healthy and capable it is another thing to prove that they are so. The only person who has said you are ignorant so far is you. So why not stop being on the offensive and just talk about what you think and why. If you cannot prove your dogs are able to live up to the standard then it is just your word. Show chows cannot do what the obidence chows do. As for

"The welfare of the breed, and the health of my dogs is all I or anyone has to prove. To produce dogs that will have a LONG healthy life free of the likely of any eye, thyroid, hip, elbow and patella problems from having an overdone head, too short a stop, too heavy of bones, and a coat way to long and thick or too tight crossbreeding."

prove it. If you can prove it then you are doing great. If you are testing your animals that is wonderful. Allot of breeders don't do that and that in itself is commendable. If not then you are just expecting everyone to take you at your word and that is allot to ask.
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Postby Red Dragon » Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:30 pm

Carla,

I will challenge you, all I can say is put your money where your mouth is and run all the tests and certify the dogs, even if they don't pass release the results so that people down the line know where a potential problem lies.

I may be mistaken, but isn't your current breeder not registering with the AKC? If that is the case something must have went pretty wrong somewhere, because breeders get away with all sorts of stuff and never get the boot from AKC. If your dogs are not registered with AKC or another appropriate registry how could you ever possibly show them? I am not saying dogs have to be shown or compete in order to be bred, after all, the system in the US is pretty corrupt and a very good dog could go forever and never win a championship. Like all things though, someone needs to keep you in check, there is a thing called kennel blindness, people get the illusion that what they are breeding is correct and all else is wrong.

You want to talk health in these dogs you found the right person, that is what I breed for first and foremost, all else comes after. So you are going to buy from someone that has no certifications what so ever, now you are starting at ground zero and have no clue what is behind them, that could prove to be disasterous! If there is no real pedigree database on the dogs, how do you know what you are breeding to what? You want to talk about all the issues and the dogs dieing young, I know why a lot of them die young and why all of these people are doing all of the surgeries on their dogs, it all boils down to lack of testing and no certifications. You can't trust just any vet either, there are more bad ones without a clue than there are good ones. I wish you luck, I have a feeling you are in for a long row to hoe!
Sam

Keeper of the furry things...Master of the kibble....Scooper of the poo!

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Postby cheriekynb » Mon Apr 09, 2007 4:58 pm

Layla wrote:
redangie24 wrote:You know what that means we can corrupt this post with other stuff. I was thinking chow trivia questions. First question.

How many chows does it take to screw in a light bulb?


Only one.... that's how many it takes to instruct its human to do it :wink:


ROFLMAO!! Now THAT'S funny!! :lol:
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Postby Rogansmommy » Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:01 pm

I have a male that is out of breed standard. He is healthy and an obedience champion. He is neutered as well. Why? Because he's not the 'full package' and in my eyes only the exceptional should be bred. There are LOADS of GREAT dogs out there in rescue right now that need homes because people do not breed the whole package. Call me judgemental, call me snobby. You would be inaccurate, as three of my current four animals are rescues. (Ironically, my chow is the only one I sought out and I did get him specifically for temperment because I wanted a challenging breed in the ring. He was also the runt of the litter and never intended to be bred. Go figure.)

We will never change the perception of our breed if we all don't start taking care of our own. I see rescues posted on here every day, and I see people actively finding these amazing animals homes. What I don't see on here are breeders actively pursuing a Code of Ethics standard and eliminating the problems with our breed. While we're not overbred like some other breeds (rotties come to my mind), we're dangerously close to being in a bad place.

Just my opinion.
Michele

^Rogan^ at the Bridge on 5/16/09 -- always in my heart

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Postby RHENEGADE CHOWS » Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:22 pm

Red Dragon wrote:Carla,

I will challenge you, all I can say is put your money where your mouth is and run all the tests and certify the dogs, even if they don't pass release the results so that people down the line know where a potential problem lies.

I may be mistaken, but isn't your current breeder not registering with the AKC? If that is the case something must have went pretty wrong somewhere, because breeders get away with all sorts of stuff and never get the boot from AKC. If your dogs are not registered with AKC or another appropriate registry how could you ever possibly show them? I am not saying dogs have to be shown or compete in order to be bred, after all, the system in the US is pretty corrupt and a very good dog could go forever and never win a championship. Like all things though, someone needs to keep you in check, there is a thing called kennel blindness, people get the illusion that what they are breeding is correct and all else is wrong.

You want to talk health in these dogs you found the right person, that is what I breed for first and foremost, all else comes after. So you are going to buy from someone that has no certifications what so ever, now you are starting at ground zero and have no clue what is behind them, that could prove to be disasterous! If there is no real pedigree database on the dogs, how do you know what you are breeding to what? You want to talk about all the issues and the dogs dieing young, I know why a lot of them die young and why all of these people are doing all of the surgeries on their dogs, it all boils down to lack of testing and no certifications. You can't trust just any vet either, there are more bad ones without a clue than there are good ones. I wish you luck, I have a feeling you are in for a long row to hoe!


In this case I'd say its more like breed blindness, not just kennel blindness. My dogs are registered with an appropriate registry. Whatever made you think they weren't. And by appropriate I mean UABR. One of my chows is AKC reg, however I chose to cross register him. He does have many champions behind him, and thank god they are a few generations back, or I wouldnt have touched him with a ten foot leash knowing the problems that I would be looking at. Young healthy looking parents or not.. been there done that. And if you have put photos side by side of chows of the 1900's and chows of today, and done the research, and are still breeding for what the standard calls for, how can you say you are breeding for health first and foremost? How many chows do you know that have a VERY good chance of living healthily into thier late teens and early twenties that were bred for the standard? What would it mean to you, to know you wouldnt have to part with your chow too early because thier bodies just couldnt handle being what they have been designed to be. And sure I know of a few chows that are show dogs or "breed standard" chows that have lived to thier early teens and the owners were shocked and pretty much waiting for them die. At Bobs, I cannot tell you just how many he had there that were in thier teens, late teens, (no he doesn't breed them that old). But there were lots. He keeps them, he plays with them. You should have seen him go in with some of them. He knew each one and thier personality. Many there are rescues from unclean, unwanted and abused homes. Some are puppys he has taken back. His chows are checked from tip to toe and oh yes I know about bad vets. I had one want me to spay my Bliss saying he had cataracts. Realllly.... So I took him my alternate vet, she didnt find them, I took them to the same vets partner, she didnt find any, I took him a board certified veterinary opthomologist, he was so surprised and elated to and I quote " be seing a chow chow that didnt have all the problems the ones he sees at the shows have." Bliss got his CERF certification. (its in the mail will have the number soon, however I do have the photocopy of original :-) Certifications are nice, but it takes way more than that to be breeding for health. It takes realizing that what you are trying to design, to create for a written standard that was never meant to be, is causing problems. The reseach is done, It's in.

I must have a hit a nerve. What was it bringing to question the Chow Bible. I mean its like a religion. Worship the standard, it is right, we can't be wrong... blah blah blah. All hail the standard even if there are facts that show that breeding for such causes so many problems... I have the facts this time, and I am going to spread the word. :-) It's just fact and Its just (for legality, in my opinion) ignorance to ignore them.

As for Bob, and what happened. The lady AKC rep who came to view his chows wanted him to DNA every last chow he has. Even his chows in thier late teens and some that were in early twenties. There was a disagreement regarding this, and he physically removed her from his property. Because he removed her from his property, they banned him. It has nothing to do with his chows themselves or how they were kept.Apparently she was arrogant and rude, and he wasn't going to tolerate it. I'd do that to anyone who was on my property treating me that way too. If they are there for a job, they need to be courteous and respectful. Even if they they disagree. See I have been to his kennel and seen all of his dogs. I have been to other chow kennels and seen thiers as well, and NONE not one of the ones I have visited, had as good a set up as his. They are all indoors, in large runs, and well fed, clean kennels. He even appologized for how "messy" they were as I arrived at 9am. They weren't messy at all. There wasn't poo everywhere and the dogs were groomed nicely. They have an entire room (large one) just for grooming. Even the old timers who were losing thier hair looked like old teddy bears that were loved too much were groomed. As for his vet, he is a former AKC judge. So nice try to redirect.

And as for certifications, I do them more as a "rub it in your face" than anything else. Long before there were certifications there was watching a dogs movement, before they were altered to unrecognizable. Knowing the "twisting in toe movement of a chow with dysplasia is crucial. I have had a chow with severe hip dysplasia and while he didnt do a lot of damage to my son when he bit him 12 years ago, he did a lot of damage to my heart. So HD prevention is a passion of mine.So on to other certifications shall we... The horrible breathing problems..where is the certification for that? The overly done head that contributes to the entropian and the breathing problems, where is the certification for that too? Hmm.. the too heavy over done, can't jump or will pull a cruciate ligament, where is the certification for that? Ohhhh yes.. thats right.. there isn't one. Ok, so many show dogs pass tests, all mine did. What in the world did it get them? It didnt make them LIVE any longer, or give them a better quality of life because they were designed to look like they did! Anyone who subscribes to the belief that the standard means health is fooling themselves. See, to think that having a certification on breed standard bred chows makes what has been done "o.k." or right, just adds to the illusion. And I know its going to be hard to change peoples minds. I have been there. I was one of the (in my opinion) brainwashed standard believers preaching the sermans to the folks with the "pet" chows. Lovely how there was a name placed on them to try to make them seem less of what they are, even if they are the REAL chows and history proves it. Jut because someone put pen to paper and rewrote what they should look like, even if it is NOT how "god" or nature designed them. Re writing how they were suppose to look was in a way genocided to the original chows. To breed them out. And not breed them at all. And I would hear "God bless the ones in agility, but don't breed them, they aren't breed quality." I know, I heard it, I was taught it, I believed it. SHAME on me for believing it for even a second. For to have an "open faced moderately to fine boned chow was almost like comitting a crime.
And Sam, I dont have a Hoe, maybe you do, so you can go sew your Hoe for me. :-D
Don't expect me to run out tomorrow and test Belle and Bliss. Thier tests Which includes OFA for hips, elbows, patellas, and thyroid, are set for Late July and the first week in August this year Micahs, is set for Nov 08, Latte Sept 08 and our new addition Ember will be Feb 09. CERF tests are anual, and so far Bliss has passed his, and Latte has passed hers, and Micahs is set for April 20th. Belle will have her CERF in June as I had to rescedule hers. And I have no problem posting, but this isn't about me or my testing, I could breed dysplastic dogs with thyroid problems and they would still in so many ways be less of a vet bill than the show dogs I had. Re read that, as I dont breed dysplastic dogs with Thyroid, but I am sure someone will like to try read it they wish. This is about the breed being changed, and the time for it to return to what it is suppose to be, for the health of the breed.

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Postby RHENEGADE CHOWS » Mon Apr 09, 2007 6:00 pm

Rogansmommy wrote:I have a male that is out of breed standard. He is healthy and an obedience champion. He is neutered as well. Why? Because he's not the 'full package' and in my eyes only the exceptional should be bred. There are LOADS of GREAT dogs out there in rescue right now that need homes because people do not breed the whole package. Call me judgemental, call me snobby. You would be inaccurate, as three of my current four animals are rescues. (Ironically, my chow is the only one I sought out and I did get him specifically for temperment because I wanted a challenging breed in the ring. He was also the runt of the litter and never intended to be bred. Go figure.)

We will never change the perception of our breed if we all don't start taking care of our own. I see rescues posted on here every day, and I see people actively finding these amazing animals homes. What I don't see on here are breeders actively pursuing a Code of Ethics standard and eliminating the problems with our breed. While we're not overbred like some other breeds (rotties come to my mind), we're dangerously close to being in a bad place.

Just my opinion.



That is exactly the midset I am refering to. What exactly do you think exceptional is? What do you picture when you think of exceptional and the whole package? It has been drilled into our heads what we are suppose to believe is exceptional includes adhering to the standard. Should thier be a standard, yes, should it have been altered, No. You don't say, these are chocolate chip cookies and then years later, change the recipe and add nuts and raisins etc etc and still call them chocolate chip cookies. They may have some of the original recipe in them, but they are NOT the same.
The chow recipe was changed. And we were told to live with it and breed for it, and it IS creating problems. READ, LEARN, EDUCATE, MAKE A CHANGE.
http://www.advocatesforanimals.org.uk/p ... digree.pdf
Read the above, print it off, take it to your vet, take it to many vets, see what they think of it. Ask for thier honesty regarding the standard. Take photos of past champions from the 1900's and of today. See what they say. My VETS are completely in agreeance with me and what I do, and what I stand for, and that fact that I am not silent about it.
We hear that polution kills our world and some make changes and try to correct it, others sit back and say oh well. The same goes for this, are you going to sit back and do nothing, or are you going to find out the truth and do something? Or is it just too hard to make a stand?

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Postby RHENEGADE CHOWS » Mon Apr 09, 2007 6:01 pm

Mindset not midset

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Postby Red Dragon » Mon Apr 09, 2007 6:27 pm

Carla,

I can see you have a lot to learn and you will find out if you do try and correct problems in the dogs. First off let me tell you that they do not tear cruciates because they are heavy, I have seen heavy ones jump and not have any problems. Cruciate tears come from weak ligaments, luxating patella, curved femors, and they can also be a result of the dog having bad hock joints and bad hip joints causing them to put extra stress on the cruciate.

You also have no clue about heavy dogs having breathing problems and dieing young, that would not have anything to due with it. I know of one heavy dog that came from an extremely heavy line that lived to be 18, there are also others in the kennel now that are in the ages from 12-15. It all has to do with health and how the dog is built. There are plenty of lines out there that the dogs die from the ages of 3-7 years, but it's not because they are heavy, it's because they have health problems and are not built correctly.

That is a flaky registry you are using and pretty much worthless.

You better go back and do a bunch more studying, you are sure gonna need it. And by the way, it is completely natural for a dog to die of old age at the age of 15, they are not built like humans and never will be.

You want to talk about Chow eyes, I can talk all day long about them with you, I am well schooled on the eyes, my CERF guy was a university professor and he is on the board at CERF, all of my dogs go to him and I ask lots of questions, so fire away!
Sam

Keeper of the furry things...Master of the kibble....Scooper of the poo!

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Postby Red Dragon » Mon Apr 09, 2007 6:37 pm

By the way Carla, I see you have bought a cream and a blue for breeding. That is not a desired breeding for someone so concerned about the breed, we already have plenty of pigment problems to deal with, breeding those two together will not likely help the situation. Not to mention they are the desired colors of puppy mills because they bring more money, not that you are one, but you are certainly not helping your image with that combo! :)
Sam

Keeper of the furry things...Master of the kibble....Scooper of the poo!

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Postby RHENEGADE CHOWS » Mon Apr 09, 2007 8:55 pm

Red Dragon wrote:Carla,

I can see you have a lot to learn and you will find out if you do try and correct problems in the dogs. First off let me tell you that they do not tear cruciates because they are heavy, I have seen heavy ones jump and not have any problems. Cruciate tears come from weak ligaments, luxating patella, curved femors, and they can also be a result of the dog having bad hock joints and bad hip joints causing them to put extra stress on the cruciate.

You also have no clue about heavy dogs having breathing problems and dieing young, that would not have anything to due with it. I know of one heavy dog that came from an extremely heavy line that lived to be 18, there are also others in the kennel now that are in the ages from 12-15. It all has to do with health and how the dog is built. There are plenty of lines out there that the dogs die from the ages of 3-7 years, but it's not because they are heavy, it's because they have health problems and are not built correctly.

That is a flaky registry you are using and pretty much worthless.

You better go back and do a bunch more studying, you are sure gonna need it. And by the way, it is completely natural for a dog to die of old age at the age of 15, they are not built like humans and never will be.

You want to talk about Chow eyes, I can talk all day long about them with you, I am well schooled on the eyes, my CERF guy was a university professor and he is on the board at CERF, all of my dogs go to him and I ask lots of questions, so fire away!

sigh.. brainwashed, that is so sad. You are doing a terrible job and trying to sidestep. Heavy dogs don't equal torn cruciate. I did say jumping off couches or jumping off just about anything when they are built as tightly and heavily boned etc as they are.
Everyone has a lot to learn. And it looks like you have even further to go.
UABR is not a worthless registry. If you have not used them, then you are not knowledgable enough to comment. I have used both, and I much prefer UABR. There is someone on the phone to talk to you immediately and answer any questions. And they are very personable. Their registry gives a broader pedigree than AKC does. :-) They do not make you pay extra for it. Its just part of thier excellent service. However once again, poor sidestepping of the issue.
Nice try though.
I really don't have any questions for you, except why do you deny the truth? If you can look at photos and compare you can see a differnce, you still haven't answered why the new standard and "look" was sooo much better. What has it done to improve the breed? Did it improve the eyes? Did it improve the over all HEALTH of the breed? Did you even bother reading "The price of the pedigree" link I sent?

As for my Blue, she is a very very dark blue and you don't know the first thing about her pedigree, nor did you ask. Ignorance is not Bliss, as he is my fabulous cream male, Ignorance is your speaking on my dogs when you have no idea what is behind them color wise. I chose MY choice of colors. That is another show assumption that reds and blacks are better... That creams shouldn't have dudley noses when most every country except the US has finally acknowledged that they should have them, and its perfectly natural. Bliss, has the best mouth pigment and over pigment of ANY chow I have come across, and he does have a dudley nose outlined in black, He is amazing. Belle is such a dark dark dark blue, she appears black, occasionally a photo will catch her silver'ish highlights. Bliss is the product of 2 blacks. And Belle is the product of a Black and a Blue. They have thrown 5 blacks, 4 blues, one cream. And that one cream. I also have the darkest self red female I have ever encountered in my 15 years in chows. I also have a light cinnamon, she would be called fawn, and for the longest time she was debated as whether she was cream or cinnamon. She is definately a light, very light, cinnamon. I also have a red boy. And are you speaking for everyone when you say they are undesireable. I desired them. You see its personal preference. Again, the health of the dogs over the color. But yes I did have my choice of colors.
Back to the issue, for which you still have no answers... How has the standard improved the breed vs/ the old standard and the original look of the breed.
And I for one, know that my colors of chows are desireable as I have a waiting list and was able to hand pick each of my future puppy parents and weed out those who would not make good puppy parents. All of my next litter has a home already. And everyone already has read the contracts and knows what I require. So have you read that? You are so busy trying to sidestep the issue and create a poor image for me, and you have not done that, nor can you do that. My image as a breeder is fantastic. I don't live under a fog or behind a false truth.
I still have hope for you.
http://www.advocatesforanimals.org.uk/p ... digree.pdf
http://www.geocities.com/rhenegade_chow ... ppies.html

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Postby IliamnasQuest » Tue Apr 10, 2007 2:26 am

Well, darn .. where do I start? *L*

First of all, you're preaching to the wrong crowd on this particular forum. This isn't a forum full of breeders and show people. There are very few here who actually show their dogs and few who really care what kind of show background their dogs have - in all honesty, I'd say most of the chows on this forum are rescues and are pets only (beloved pets, which is wonderful).

So coming here with your information makes me suspect you are doing it just because you are looking for a market for your pups ... because it sounds like you're planning on breeding a lot.

You've thrown around a lot of lofty ideals and concepts, but what you say is flawed in some ways. I agree that there are many chows that are overdone. Personally I don't like the heaviness that is in some of the show chows, but condemning all show chows and all champions (like you appear to be doing) is just ludicrous. There ARE moderate chows earning championships. There ARE chows that are good examples of the breed - that meet the breed standard and yet are not overdone - who are earning championships. A championship, in and of itself, is not a BAD thing. It really is ridiculous to try to make people believe so.

Let's go on to another part of your rant that makes me go "hmmmm .. ". You talk about all your show chows dying young. You, of course, blame this on the breeder. Maybe you chose dogs from breeders with lines that didn't live long - did you check beforehand? Yes, there ARE some lines that don't live as long as others. And then there are lines - SHOW lines even - that live nice long lives. I've seen a lot of show lines with dogs that live into their teens regularly. My Dora is going on ten and her dam is going on 14 and doing well. You evidently made the choice to buy show dogs from short-lived lines and now choose to blame all show breeders for your misjudgement. How logical is THAT?

It sounds like you're making every excuse in the book not to have to prove your dogs in ANY way. Sure .. that's cheaper .. but you also completely disregarded the comments made about proving your dog in other ways, such as obedience and agility. This would help show that your dogs are, indeed, more like the active, athletic, versatile dogs that chows used to be. You are full of preaching about the "original" chows - well, do your chows pack, pull, or herd? Do they hunt? Are they athletic and able to do any of these things that were part of the "originals"? By taking the time and effort and money to show that your dogs DO have instinct and ability to do more than just produce puppies, you will be doing much more than just preaching (which it appears is all you're doing now).

Now, for the kicker .. you preach about health. Whew, I like it when someone preaches about health! Believe me, I'm dedicated to the concept of healthy dogs myself (as an owner, a former vet tech, an active trainer and someone who works her dogs regularly). So I took a look at your website. I'm almost sorry I did.

You've got a cream male named "Bliss". He was born July 14, 2005 so he's less than two years old. The ONLY health test you list is a CERF. He's already sired two litters (ten puppies) without any other heath testing but that one eye exam. I guess just scheduling the tests for August make him healthy already? Amazing how that works.

Then you list your blue bitch named "Belle". Belle's second birthday will be July 30. Belle currently has NO health testing .. and you're putting off the testing until she whelps. She's currently pregnant with her THIRD LITTER at the tender age of 20 MONTHS. I'm guessing that you've bred her every heat cycle so far, for three in a row and starting at less than a year old. Oh yes, that's REALLY the sign of a QUALITY breeder.

So I look at the next bitch - Latte, a cinnamon girl who is not yet a year old. You list that you'll breed her when she's closer to 18 months old .. too young for OFA certfications, but I guess doing health tests FIRST is just not that important to you.

And to add one more thing - UABR (United All Breed Registry) is pretty much known as a "puppy mill" registry. They will register just about anything. They will register dogs without a pedigree. They will even register mix breed dogs in their "United Designer Dog Division"!! This is not a registry that is respected by anyone with knowledge. It IS a registry that fools unsuspecting people into thinking they're getting a "quality" dog just because it's registered.

So after reading what you say in this thread and looking at your website, all I can do is say SHAME ON YOU!! You are doing nothing more than being a glorified puppy mill/backyard breeder in my opinion. This has nothing to do with some mysterious "chow Bible" - this has to do with common sense. You aren't properly health testing. You're breeding young dogs. You're breeding for colors, not health. And you come on a forum like this trying to fool people into thinking you're a knowledgeable, respectable breeder.

Well, believe me .. I doubt many are fooled.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska
Kylee Cub AKC/CKC/ASCA/UKC CD, AKC CDX NA NAJ CGC, NADAC NAC NJC, Schutzhund BH, HIC, 2X #1 Chow in AKC Obedience (Chow)
Trick AKC/CKC/ASCA CD, AKC RE NAP NJP CGC, HIC (GSD)
Dora AKC NA NAJ 1/3 CD CGC (Chow)
Khana AKC RA, Delta Society Pet Partner (Therapy Dog)
.. and always in my heart ..
Dawson AKC UD CGC, ASCA CD, 2X HIT, HIC (GSD) and Lady AKC UD CGC, ASCA CD, 2X HIT, #6 ASCA Novice Aussie (Aust. Shep.)

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Re: One question

Postby Merlin » Tue Apr 10, 2007 3:04 am

BigTrucker wrote:It may be late to bring this up...After reading some negative posts about a breeder...has anybody ever had a bad experience with a rescue?...think the "bad ones" would even participate on ths site. Their to busy to field such arguments...and they seek a low profile. When a breeder responds...its a good thing...just as it would be if a rescue post something. Let them have a level playing field. Can't we just get along :lol:

John


John - LOTS of people have issues with rescues, BUT, that's only because they come with a set of baggage based on their horrible pasts. Many rescue sport odd or weird behaviours that their new owners patiently learn to look upon with endearment rather than disdain.

one cannot realistically compare rescues with well bred puppies, it's not fair. I work extensively with the rehabilitation of blind dogs and RESCUE dogs and I've written many articles about rescues.
including Reading to Rescues:
http://rehomemychow.wordpress.com/2007/ ... o-rescues/

and

Understanding The Rescued Chow
http://rehomemychow.wordpress.com/2007/ ... r-mandate/

There are SO MANY rescues out there now, this subject should NEVER be verboten. There are more rescues than there are available puppies on the marketplace, so dealing with this, and discussing these aspects should be more than welcomed.

Cheers
MM
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Contact Your local Chow Chow Association to find your Breeder of Merit!
Better Yet ! Adopt!

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Postby Merlin » Tue Apr 10, 2007 3:10 am

We hear that polution kills our world and some make changes and try to correct it, others sit back and say oh well. The same goes for this, are you going to sit back and do nothing, or are you going to find out the truth and do something? Or is it just too hard to make a stand?
_________________
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http://www.rinercam.com


Carla, I applaud your efforts to take us back to the beginning. and I personally will do anything to support your philosphy. We've all seen the same horror happen to the Akita, the Chinese Sharpei, the of course the German Shephard dog.

I've come to the conclusion that people are determined to remain in a state of ignorance over a great many things. As long as those people exist, there will be someone out there telling them stories and lies that will be ultimately believed by the ignorant.

We lobby relentlessly here about puppymills, and why not to buy at pet stores, but it just doesn't sink in their dumb brains.

I hope you never run out of spirit and continue to breed chows they way they are 'supposed' to be rather than the way some selfish idiot decided they should be.
(pardon my frustration)

Cheers
MM
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Contact Your local Chow Chow Association to find your Breeder of Merit!
Better Yet ! Adopt!

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Postby RHENEGADE CHOWS » Tue Apr 10, 2007 4:21 am

Jeff&Peks wrote:yeah what Renegade said, I don't like standards, especially when the standards are changed to fit the show people., its all for the amusement of the Chow hobbyist. Everyone has been blaming the BYB for everything that goes on with a Chow but its the so called good breeders that are creating the problems by trying to turn out this years model. From the first day I came on this site the way people talked about breeders it always make's me think of Dr. Moreau And Dr Frankinstien. Dr. Mareu's breeding service, I well breed to fit your needs.

I like the name , Sounds like a good name for the type of Chow rescue Bubba wants to open.

Thank you for speaking up, too many people know it's the truth, and just sit back, too scared of retribution, blacklisting and so forth. When you have been part of a "family" for so long, to speak up in such a way would more than likely get you disowned. :-( Spread the word. And keep speaking up. Our chows depend on it.

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Postby RHENEGADE CHOWS » Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:27 am

If people in this forum like me, have chows, then its the right forum. Especially if they have beloved chows LIKE I DO.
And nice one on the "sounds like you are trying to get a market for your chows...blah blah blah.." You obviously didnt read that I have a waiting list, and have hand selected my puppy parents. You obviously haven't checked out my page on my puppies. I dont have any right now. I do not intened to breed "a lot." as you say. I have produced 2 litters in the last 15 years. Oh wow, thats really overdoing it... sarcasm.

So, thank you for taking note that there is a debate going on, and joining in, however, if you dont read up on everything that is going on, then you may want to backstep, read what is going on, if it something you really wish to comment on and then post something really worthwhile. No disrepect.


I am well aware of one female from a few years back that was perfect, she got her championship, and the owner constantly got flack for even showing her. "You are showing a pet," I would hear said to her and about her.
I am not speaking of things I have no knowledge of. I have been there and heard the gossip and so forth. So please don't go trying to sugar coat what really goes on. I have been there, and done that. Its not ridiculous, have you bothered to read or do the research, or are you just too scared to even bother to look at the facts? Ok, seriously, did you think that I thought I would open my mouth and have people go, "Ohhhh Nooo what have we done! Lets fix it now..." ha.... No. This is something that isn't going to be easy, that is going to get me a bunch of flack, and I certainly don't think I will be getting christmas and birthday cards from everyone.

However it needs to be said, it isnt a popular thought, but it is a factual one.

Belle my dear went into a silent heat. The first sign we knew she was in heat, was when my son said "Mom there is something wrong with the dogs they are stuck together." My mother nearly fell out of her chair laughing. I didnt think it was so funny. Is the matter of fact I was very ticked. I make NO exception that breeding that young is too young.
As for her having health testing, you chose the wrong words. She has been health tested thank you very much.
And her third litter yes this was a planned one. and you see she wasn't c sectioned. She can whelp, and she can breath and she is on supplements. Her 2nd litter, That was a result when we were in England, and I have the dates to prove it, she was being kept by friends so was Bliss, and were told explicitly NOT to put the two together that week. We took them at thier word that they hadn't I didnt know Belle was even pregnant until 2 weeks before she whelped. I looked at her, and said... OMG she's pregnant. I thought my heart was going to jump out of my chest. I called up my friends who were watching her, and they admitted they had put the 2 in one run cause they thought they would be lonley. I didnt have Latte or Micah at the time. SO nice one.. they were NOT AI dogs. Those breedings WERE NOT planned and I admit that. Now moving along. If I had any doubt from all the going over that she has had by 2 vets and different offices, then I would not have bred her a 3rd time.

And yes we did do a preliminary screening of her hips. I have not sent them into OFA as it was for me and my vet to look at it. Her hips are great. I can't wait to send her next shots off to OFA. :-) I am so proud of them, they are of excellent quality thank you.


Nice on the refocusing of saying It's my fault they lived a short life. There is proof that dogs bred in this fashion typically have a much shorter life than dogs who are not bred according rigid standards. Read up on it. I didnt write the article.

You obviously didnt read much on me proving my dogs, as I am, and anyone who wishes to buy a breeder puppy from me gets the thrid degree. I stay on all papers until they have completed all tests. And yes that does make me a hipocrit with this last breeding of Belle, but I can be a hipocrit, I know what to look for, my vets plural, knew what to look for, and I have had chows for 15 years, actively. I do not have the knowlege of being my puppy owners, so I dont trust that they will, so I go on papers. ALLL others are on spay neuter contracts.

No I don't have any cows on my property, I do live near some. I don't think the farmer would be too pleased if I took them out with them. But it did make for a good laugh.

The preaching isn't for me my dear. this forum, or at least the original title of this thread, was based on breeders. And I stepped in as I heard MY breeder was being badmouthed. I have 4 very wonderful, extremely healthy chows that I have got from him, and a 5th (who was my 4th in order) who is from another breeder. And I don't have to guarantee you, but will definately say to you, and only time will prove to you the genuineness of what I say about my dogs, He will not be bred until way after he is 2 and has passed all of his tests, as he has Champions behind him. I want to make sure beyond any shadow of a doubt and there is doubt, that he will pass. So I hope he does, however if he has a heavy head in any way, I will fix him so fast he won't ever even realize he was male.

A former vet tech eh. :-) And you are blind to the facts that the re wrote, now 20 year old, chow chow standard has not improved the breed but actually givin it so many problems.

Again, (goingin order of your paragraphs here) Bliss has had health screenings, the certs are to come. And they will come. :-) But excellent job in this case of trying to refocus, you still nor has anyone else, answered how the chow chow standard has improved the breed.) Read above on what happened with Belle's first breeding, I totally know that she was too young. What did you want me to do, untie them when my son told me. When I say a silent heat, there was NO blood, no whining neighbors dogs for miles (like we have now) Bliss wasn't trying to premount her, like does now. There was No sign, and trust me I was looking. I was 7 mo pregnant myself with my daughter, and there is no way I wanted puppies and a newborn at the same time. SO yes flame me for that one. I get it. I flamed myself thank you, and I told the puppy owners that. ALL went out knowing that I had not pretested them. That was hard. And yes all went out with spay nueter contracts, and contracts that if they cannot keep thier puppies they come back to me or I will help them find a new home, or will approve any new home, if they have someone in mind.

Thats rich as AKC had someone register a cat with them a few years back. And UABR went in for me when I had one buyer bounce a check and they wouldnt return phone calls, they were so personable in putting a hold on her papers and microchip. On thier papers, they have a place for, and encourage, microchipping, and spaying and neutering. They even have the gold pets standard, and to be a gold label pet breeder you must meet the highest of standards. It is my goal to be one. Not to mass produce, that is never a intention of mine. My intention here is NOT to get buyers, I have those thanks, It is to make people aware of the flaws that been proven in breeding for a rigid created standard that is not how the dogs were meant to be.

And if you are trying to tell me that most BYB's who don't test or screen or breed dogs and bitches who don't have good bites hips, coats etc are UABR thats a laugh. I guess thats why we all "AKC reg chow chows, lavendar ones rare" in the papers... what a laugh. People actually ask me why I use UABR and after they look into them, and see the papers, they know why. It (to me and personal knowledge of using both) is so much better in so many ways. And if you haven't had experience with them personally, you really shouldn't comment. It is a personal choice. And given the choice I did chose. I had a puppy out of the number 2 chow in the country, or Bliss. Money was not the issue. As it was a gift from my mom. Why do you keep talking about money? is it that important to you? If I was trying to "make money" as you say, I would have quietly gone about my business and bought way more puppies than I have as I a kennel license to have 20 dogs. I have no intention of having anywhere close to that many. My husband would freak. :-)




Oh is that the best you can do, try so hard to refocus and call me a puppy mill a glorified one. Well if thats case then I guess any breeder here is a glorified puppy mill. I do more than any breeder I have come across (no offense Bob.) But I do and I will. And I will say it again, Belles first litter was a mistake, her 2nd litter, while I was in england and have the ticket stubs to prove it and you count back the days yourself, was definatley a mistake, the puppys that they produced were amazing. I get pictures from the parents all the time. I pretty much insist on it. They are family. How many puppy millers do you know care so much for thier puppies that they can't wait to find out what they are named or see pictures of them. MAKING SURE that they adhere to the CONTRACT.

I am properly health testing thank you, we are just waiting on the clock ticking to OFA. You can't get those OFA's (except thyroid and my vet put those off) until they turn 2. I can't make the clock tick any faster.


Thanks for your comments Melanie. :-)
Read it... http://www.advocatesforanimals.org.uk/p ... digree.pdf

I realize this wont be easy, and I know I am not perfect, and I don't profess to be the most perfect, I can only move forward and that is what I am doing. I only to prove it myself, my dogs and those who get my dogs. My web site will stay the same feel free to follow it.

I am not going anywhere. I just finally spoken up.

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Postby Judy Fox » Tue Apr 10, 2007 6:01 am

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz! :-$
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Postby IliamnasQuest » Tue Apr 10, 2007 6:46 am

RHENEGADE CHOWS wrote:I do not intened to breed "a lot." as you say. I have produced 2 litters in the last 15 years. Oh wow, thats really overdoing it... sarcasm.


I did check out your website, such that it is, including the puppy page. I was stating facts, and the fact is that you produced two litters in the past YEAR and both were with young stock that should not have been bred.

I am well aware of one female from a few years back that was perfect, she got her championship, and the owner constantly got flack for even showing her. "You are showing a pet," I would hear said to her and about her.
I am not speaking of things I have no knowledge of. I have been there and heard the gossip and so forth. So please don't go trying to sugar coat what really goes on. I have been there, and done that. Its not ridiculous, have you bothered to read or do the research, or are you just too scared to even bother to look at the facts?


Your point is obscure. So you listen to gossip. So you're overly concerned with what someone said about a dog that earned a championship but was called a "pet". SO WHAT. As I said in my previous post, there ARE some overdone chows out there. There are also some underdone chows (so to speak). There's a balance in the middle that many breeders are striving for and it doesn't mean that they can't SHOW them or should be badmouthed because they do. You are not some special breeder .. believe me, with the huge mistakes you've made SO far, you're not even on the respectable side of breeding. You have lofty ideals but you're floating FAR below them at this point.


Belle my dear went into a silent heat. The first sign we knew she was in heat, was when my son said "Mom there is something wrong with the dogs they are stuck together." <snip> Her 2nd litter, That was a result when we were in England, and I have the dates to prove it, she was being kept by friends so was Bliss, and were told explicitly NOT to put the two together that week.


You have lots of excuses .. I know I've heard these same sort of excuses given by other BYB's who just had "ooops" litters too .. and yet they sold those puppies .. hmmmmm ... you were unable to notice a bitch go through the 6-9 days of proestrus and it wasn't until your bitch was in standing heat and actually tied to a dog that you realized she was in heat. That's your first excuse. The second excuse is that, even though the dates probably indicated your bitch would soon go into her next heat cycle (and you'd already had ONE supposedly "ooops" litter) you left her and the male conveniently together with friends who weren't observant or knowledgeable enough to keep them separated. And after she already had too litters at a very young age, you CHOOSE to breed her on her third heat cycle in a row even though she is not yet even old enough to certify through OFA for her health tests.

Can you see why your actions completely dismiss any truth that may be hidden?

And yes we did do a preliminary screening of her hips. I have not sent them into OFA as it was for me and my vet to look at it. Her hips are great. I can't wait to send her next shots off to OFA. :-) I am so proud of them, they are of excellent quality thank you.


Hips are only a small part of it, and a regular vet is not qualified to truly judge hip x-rays anyhow (nor are you). Chows are running around 47% when it comes to elbow dysplasia and a good percentage also have luxating patellas. You talk about how you're GOING to have these tests done but meanwhile you've bred this bitch three times - and as far as I can tell, to an male who also has no OFA certifications. I'm sorry, but you fit the definition of a BYB. Plain and simple.

And by the way ... you may want to find a better vet. Good vets are not typically going to encourage someone to breed a young bitch for a third time in a row, especially when the health certs are not done. But just think .. if she produces five puppies every litter and you breed her every heat cycle until she's 6 or 7, you may have 60 puppies you can sell and have some $30K in income! I'm sure that's not even crossed your mind.

You obviously didnt read much on me proving my dogs, as I am,


You're right, I didn't read anything on your proving your dogs. Please, elucidate! how exactly ARE you proving them? Have they certified in some sort of athletic ability? Do they show herding instinct? Are they even temperament tested? Are they therapy dogs? Do they work in weight pull? I already know how you are about showing in conformation, so surely you are going overboard in some other venue to truly prove that YOUR chows are better than others and worthy of being bred so frequently.

I stay on all papers until they have completed all tests. And yes that does make me a hipocrit with this last breeding of Belle, but I can be a hipocrit,


I guess I don't need to add to that .. *L*

A former vet tech eh. :-) And you are blind to the facts that the re wrote, now 20 year old, chow chow standard has not improved the breed but actually givin it so many problems.


I'm not blind to anything - and I don't generalize about everyone the way you do. I don't generalize that all show champions must be terrible dogs because that's completely ridiculous and shows a great deal of ignorance on YOUR part. As I said, there are definitely some overdone chows out there. I don't like them myself. But there are very nice moderate chows earning championships and that's becoming more popular all the time. Badmouthing show breeders doesn't help your cause a BIT. The chow standard is, unfortunately, open to much interpretation and some allowed it to sway into a realm that was not particularly healthy for their chows. But not everyone has done that. My chows are not overdone by any means. They breathe well and move well (as is evidenced by their ability to earn performance titles, including agility). Two of them are from show breeders. My last one I purchased after spending time looking for the proper style .. a chow that was moderately open, healthy, athletic, intelligent, and had an exquisite temperament. And she could also earn a championship, IF I chose to pursue that. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Thats rich as AKC had someone register a cat with them a few years back. And UABR went in for me when I had one buyer bounce a check and they wouldnt return phone calls, they were so personable in putting a hold on her papers and microchip.


Ahhh, I see. You've found a registry that will assist you in your endeavors so of course you will support it even though the registry is used in good part by unscrupulous breeders who are unable to register their dogs with AKC, CKC, etc. Any registry that encourages designer dog breeding .. and allows a person to register without a pedigree ... is an extremely poor example of a registry. And those using such a registry are, in essence, showing us all what kind of quality they're producing. If you ever want to be taken seriously, you should do better than UABR.

And if you are trying to tell me that most BYB's who don't test or screen or breed dogs and bitches who don't have good bites hips, coats etc are UABR thats a laugh.


Well, YOU'RE using UABR .. *LOL* ..

And if you haven't had experience with them personally, you really shouldn't comment. It is a personal choice. And given the choice I did chose.


I can go on their website and read their FAQ's and all the sordid truth is right there in black and white. And you made that CHOICE? Whew-boy, it's amazing that you call yourself a breeder.

I am properly health testing thank you, we are just waiting on the clock ticking to OFA. You can't get those OFA's (except thyroid and my vet put those off) until they turn 2. I can't make the clock tick any faster.


Proper health testing would mean certifying PRIOR to breeding. And the thyroid and patellas can be done at a year of age through OFA (as can the cardiac, I believe) .. yet you still don't have them done either.

I really doubt that many will take you seriously until you straighten up and do things right. You came on here like a bellowing bull, blaming all the world's sins on show breeders and championships .. talking about how YOU are doing all these RIGHT things and yet it's been shown that you've made mistake after mistake and then choose to breed again. You can talk all you want, but if you're not going to lead by example then not many are going to listen.

Personally I wouldn't recommend anyone to buy a dog from you. You may have been around chows for 15 years (as have I - and training and showing for nearly 20) but you've only been breeding for the past year and all the breedings have been wrong. Talking big and yet doing the wrong thing doesn't get you anywhere. If you truly want to make a mark on the world of the chows, then you need to calm down, think logically, post clearly and honestly, and QUIT breeding until you have a grasp on how things SHOULD be done.

I have no doubt that most of those reading this forum will not have a problem forming reasonable opinions of someone who breeds a young bitch on three consecutive heat cycles.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

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Sojourner11
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Postby Sojourner11 » Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:37 am

You have tuned in to the CC.ORG breeder smackdown..............


LET'S GET READY TO RRRRUUUUUUMMMMBBBLLLLLLLLLEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!


(Gee Mel, you showed up at the right time didn't you?) :P
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Postby Rogansmommy » Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:52 am

Oh please. I'm the mindset you're opposed to? Honey, you have alot to learn.

My female rott rescue was the product of a BYB like yourself. (Yes, Rhenegade, I am calling you a BYB.) Neither of her parents had any health certs, nor were they show quality dogs, but were bred because of temperment. Let me tell you about my Nina. She has more allergies than I have hair on my head. Her worst is Protein Losing Enteropy, something that can be genetically screened for and prevented and should NEVER be bred. Have you ever owned a canine allergic to PROTEIN? Yeah - it's as fun as it sounds. Speaking of hair, she's also going bald. The reason? She's allergic to dust mites. Oh, and lets not forget that she's got entropian or bad hips. Well, according to OFA, they are fair, but since she's getting older, they are considerably worse.

Why am I opposed to breeders like yourself and why do I want 'dogs who are worthy' to be bred? Because, while I love Nina and took her into my home temporarily at 5 weeks of age, she moved into our hearts and we've spent countless hours maintaining her quality of life. Not to mention dollars. One of her nicknames is "Porsche". It's "Porsche" because my husband would have one if not for her.

I want a dog who will live a healthy, pain free existance in my home. I want a dog who's temperment is APPROPRIATE for the breed. (I'm not looking for a Golden Retriever here. I want a Chow for a reason and it's all because of the attitude.) I want a dog who is mentally stable and of strong heart because I want a dog I can trust with my family if I give it the appropriate guidance. I don't want my son to experience death of a beloved pet before it's time.

All Code of Ethics breeders do is ensure these simple things. I am all for producing 'pets', but even my competition dogs are 'pets'.
Michele

^Rogan^ at the Bridge on 5/16/09 -- always in my heart

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Postby PurpleKisses » Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:25 am

I have a chow from a breeder who did not like AKC standards, and he does not do health testing either because "none of his other puppies have ever had problems".........He is also registered with UABR.

I do not necessarily agree with all the standards set forth by breed clubs, but health testing is something that is SO important. I have had to put to sleep to dogs because of congenital/genetic defects that destroyed their life(Kaia had Pituitary Dwarfism and Luxating Patellas, and Chloe had a defect in her throat that stopped her from being able to swallow correctly - The actual defect is still a mystery as my vet had never seen anything like that) My chow now has alot of problems, none quite as bad as those, and hopefully won't develop anymore.

I have always thought that testing was mainly for the show dogs, and as long as the dog seemed healthy and was taken care of right, it would be fine. I got my other two from the shelter, I figured I would go to a breeder so that my chances would be lessened on defects but I didn't listen to everyone saying 'no don't go there', there was so many red flags it was like a parade. But all I saw was a cute puppy face. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE my dog. But it is hard to have yet another dog that has problems. My vet is now saying that she cannot say 100% that they are genetic defects without seeing the parents and lines(contrary to what she told me earlier) but me and my husband both think that it is to protect her. But I will always wonder, if I had done the research and gone with a dog that had had all the testing done, and had parents that 'proved' themselves one way or another(agility, obedience, therapy, show, whatever - someway to show that these dogs were socialized and raised properly and that they are good specimens of their breed) Would I have all the medical problems I do?? Would I have a chow that still had teeth? :? I love my dog very much and would not trade him for anything. But I also know that someday when it is time to find another dog, for me, or for my friends and family. I will be looking for something WAY different in a breeder. I would wish this on no one and no dog.

Just my 2 cents.
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