Concerned......Please Help!!

General discussions about Chow Chows.

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Taz
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Post by Taz » Sun Nov 06, 2005 8:33 am

Rogansmommy wrote:[quote="Taz]
I don't agree with you.
Jawning calms the dog down. And looking away is a sign thats says
"i'm no threat"
And I ask again, if you believe so strongly that the signs means that, why do I have no trouble with my dog?

And my sisters dog is a very stressed dog, Not a Chow, and everytime I visit him, he get''s to excited and wants to jump all over me, but then I jawn and looks away and the dog stops it right away.
Why do you think that is?
You are confusing two different techniques.

The first technique of having a child look away from a dog is a sign of submission. Any animal that tries to stare you down and win claims dominance over you.

The second technique, which works well when used properly, is ignoring a dog when it is being a fool. It also requires you to turn your body away and keep a closed body posture. NOT a technique a child should use.[/quote]

As long as we have such a different view on dogs, we will never agree.
Dogs will not try to take over the family.
They have no reason to do so.
Looking away shows the dog that she is no threat.
And there must be a reason why Ching is growling.

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Post by Taz » Sun Nov 06, 2005 8:39 am

arnis wrote:Taz, i am sorry you believe this.. but ok, your right, we are not dogs... so how do YOU know what they think when they are scolded or looked over for someone else? i know what i practice works for Kahn. what worked for you worked for you. But pecking order does play a major part in raising an agressive dog... chow chow's are agressive dogs and must be treated so, when you treat them like lil cuddly teaddy bears is when the problems begin.
No dogs are born aggressive.
It's their owners that makes them aggressive.
And so I say, Chows are not an aggressive breed and not Pit bulls either.
But if you punish your dog, or does something else that is wrong, and removes the language from the dog, your dog will bite, and then you have an aggressive dog.
And because people treat their dog as an aggressive breed, you will get an aggressive dog. As so as the pit bull, they are the most sweetest dogs with the right owners.

I will never treat a dog like a cuddly bear, that is not fear to any dog.
But I will not treat them as a aggressive breed either.
And will not punish him. Pecking order among dogs and humans are not true.

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Post by Taz » Sun Nov 06, 2005 8:46 am

Rogansmommy wrote:
Taz wrote:
Dogs has no need for fighting for their rank in a human family.
The dog has all it needs. Food several times a day, walks osv.
Dogs as no intention to take over the family.
They just doesn't think that way.

If it is so important to establish rank with your dog, why haven't my dog taken the highest rank?
I never punish him, and never stare at him, never does any of the things you say a dog owner has to do.
And my dog is pretty dominant.
And still, I have no trouble with him.
Sorry, Taz, but I disagree with this as well. A chow (or any other strong breed) will take over the rank in a household if they do not have the confidence in their pack. Chows were bred to be independent thinkers and at any time, if they feel they should be higher then a member of the pack, they will establish that any way they can.

I have worked with (and only owned) strong willed breeds (rottweilers and chows) for over 10 years. Your dog must view you as dominant. You can do this without punishment (and with a chow, you should, as they will 'bite the hand that feeds them') and without staring and yelling. Sometimes, it's just the aura you have that's enough. But a dog will try and take over a pack if given the opportunity.

Also, do not forget, Chows are one of the closest breeds to the wolf as they are an ancient breed.
I've never owned a rottweiler, but many of my friends do.
and they do not use punish or tries to establish rank with their dog.
No, my dog doesn't see me as dominant, just as his owner.
I do have rules, as any other dogowner.
But not such stupid rules as never letting the dog eat before I have osv.
And I will not change my mind, dogs will not try to take over the family.

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Post by Taz » Sun Nov 06, 2005 8:47 am

There are many other breeds that is closer to the wolves than Chows.

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Post by Judy Fox » Sun Nov 06, 2005 10:17 am

Now then everybody!
This is getting rather heated and we are beginning to get cross.
Now then, my final sixpenneth is this:- :(

When my Milly Ching was brought home she was only a baby - just six weeks old. We treated her like a baby - she was only just legally able to leave her mother but five years ago we had a petrol shortage, the weather was dreadful and it was decided that we could pick her up in case the situation deteriorated. We did so on 5th November,2000 - 5 years ago.

In all this we were very mindful that ideally, she should have stayed with her mother and siblings for another two weeks. So when we got her home after a long journey in the car during which she was cuddled gently all the way, we treated her like the baby chowling she was. :)

She was given two boxes with nice warm blankets in - one in the kitchen and one in our bedroom - she soon learned to go to them when she was tired and if she fell asleep in midplay, she was carefully lifted into one and left undisturbed to sleep out her sleep. :)

She was carefully fed, never shouted at, never hit. She was played with on her terms - reprimanded if she got rough and tried to nip etc. etc. etc.

She was taken to the vet for her final jabs on 27th December, 2000 and had to wait a further 2 weeks before she could be taken out so in fact she was just turned four months old before she was first taken out of the garden.

Now compare this with the situation with Chingy.

He had to travel to his new home by aeroplane at a very young age. This, I would consider would be very traumatic.

Since then, he has been taken to a football match, attended a halloween party complete with costume, been to visit friends houses, been pulled about by a baby.....................

and he is by my reckoning (please correct me if I am wrong) about 3 and half months old.

He has been shouted at, rolled on his back, stuck in his play pen..................

My Milly Ching is the most adorable, well adjusted, arrogant, aloof Chow lady you would wish to meet.

She has never been hit, never been shouted at, has never been treated like a cuddly toy, knows exactly what we say to her and what is expected of her. We listen to her and watch the signals she gives us. She is a lovely trustworthy adult and matured Chow. She knows, however, that I am The Mummy Person and she is the Chow Chow!! :D I put all this down to firstly our management of her and secondly, her blood line. However, I would not leave her EVER with our young great-nephews or great-nieces, unsupervised.

I think serious mistakes are being made in the management of Chingy. I do not think I am going too be popular for this posting - for that I am sorry. This chowling I suspect has been hurt, all be it accidently and a serious effort must be made to look at how this can be rectified.

I still maintain that small children should not be hunking chowlings or any puppies for that matter, about. :(

I will now 'butt out'. :(
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Post by Taz » Sun Nov 06, 2005 10:36 am

I agree with you Judy Fox. :)

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Post by Rogansmommy » Sun Nov 06, 2005 2:17 pm

As do I!

See, Taz? We may disagree over the method used to rectify the situation, but we do agree that there is an inherent problem in the household (I'll even avoid using the 'p' word) that has caused Ching to growl.

Either way, this needs to be fixed asap or in 6 months there will either be another homeless chow or another chow needing to be PTS because of behavior problems.
Michele

^Rogan^ at the Bridge on 5/16/09 -- always in my heart

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Post by Zhuyos mom » Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:24 pm

I am sorry everyone. But it's my turn to be politically incorrect here...

I think we are being much too hard and much too judgemental of Chi Chings Mom! She, unlike many of us, has the luxury to ask US questions (right or wrong) on her current training, rearing, blending into her family and friends her FIRST chowling!

Whatever method you choose, whatever way you see a chow's lineage comes from, the bottomline here is that Chowlover has experience with animals. She is just asking for guidance. I DO NOT THINK SHE HAS ABUSED HER LITTLE CHOWLING AT ALL! Why, because she has the presence of mind to ask for our opinions. I also don't think she will rehome Chingy unless, she really feels that her household will not be happy and Chingy's life will not be fulfilling in her household. She rescues Chows for goodness sakes! Gwrol was rehomed... Pooh Bear was rehomed...Pekoe was rehomed... Mabel was rehomed... Kodi was rehomed... Mai Tai was rehomed... Shiloh found a home to be rehomed... etc...

Give her a break, everyone! Please! If not, what use is this site for anyone, moreover Chowlover who is kindly asking for our guidance.

Also, I don't really care if you agree or don't agree with my suggestions to Chowlover on how her daughter can posture herself with Chingy because it's just a suggestion and it's Chowlover's perogative to try or ignore. All I know is that it has worked for my HUGE family filled with youngsters and our family that raised 6 chowlings to full seniorhood and 1 adult rescue.

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Post by Judy Fox » Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:58 pm

Lou, I don't think for one moment that Chingy has been abused intentionally. What I said was that he has been hawked round the County from the moment he landed when in fact he should have been kept safe and secure at home and allowed to settle down. :(
I understand that they are incredibly proud of him and that he is adorable as all chowlings are. You should know this if anybody should. But, he only has a baby body with little baby bones and try to put yourself in a baby chowling's position at a football game with all the noise etc. etc. etc. and being carted around by a very small person with little fingers digging into your little body when in fact you should still be safely in the home you only arrived in four or five days ago.
You quite rightly said that chowlover asked for advice and help - I tried to put my feelings over gently in previous post - I knew I would ruffle feathers but I still feel that what I said in my last post had to be said. :(
I rest my case. :?
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Post by Zhuyos mom » Sun Nov 06, 2005 5:35 pm

Oh now Judy, you know I adore you. I wasn't singling your comment out at all. That said, then I and my family are guilty of doing what Chowlover has been doing to Chingy. Go figure how and why our chows tolerate things like having a towel thrown over his head for that intelligence test we all once tried on our chows, or the Halloween costumes and Christmas ears and hats they've had to wear for our amusement. My family live very close to each other and all our chowlings were brought to chow day care (aka my parent's home) when they were young. Once school ended, the kids would come and play with the chowling (s). I respect what you posted. However, I still don't think we should be judgemental. Real time and on line time does not often equate, perhaps there's been a little overexposure on line but Chowlover has shared her chowling with us before day 1 and it may seem like yesterday, but it has been close to a month now since Chingy arrived. Well, whatever... Zhu would be very crossed at me if I were crossed at you, that I know for sure!

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Post by kingalls » Sun Nov 06, 2005 7:04 pm

I found this link to be interesting.....http://www.canismajor.com/dog/alpha1.html
It discusses the pack heirarchy and "the stare"...
One of the good things about this site is that we share our own real experiences and that others will glean what makes sense to them and their Chow.
just as a little reminder - our early beginnings with Shiloh - we were feeling rather neglectful because she wouldn't come into the house even though many kept telling me she needed to be indoors...here we were - sitting outside in 35 degrees, trying to pet her with our feet, trying to get her to trust us to come indoors...we were trying to learn to be good Chow owners and turn this poor abused girl around...Every situation is unique - the people here helped alot but we couldn't follow everyone's advise either as only some of it would work. It was a slow 6 month process and constant posts on this site for advise. (Note: Shiloh would never look us in the eye. She can do that now but it usually because she is wondering when the treat is coming :D )
I think that Taz, Victory, Lou, Judy, Rogansmommy, Jeff - everyone is making a great contribution to help with Chi-Ching. Chi-Ching's mom will figure out what is going to work.
Karen

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Post by Auddymay » Sun Nov 06, 2005 11:21 pm

First I'd like to say to Chowlover, take nothing to heart. I'm certain your Ching is well cared for, better than I care for Lily. Alot of discussion of hierarchy and pack mentality, mixed with a few theories about breed aggression and Chow uniqueness.
Lily is the first pure breed chow we have owned. I have a 9 yr old chow lab mix who definitely favors the lab side in obedience and character. Previous to her, I had a boxer, an intact male, also considered an aggressive breed.
When I first met my husband, he had a chow lab mix too. Every one of these dogs had there own personality. The chow mix my husband had was agressive to the point he was put down for the safety of others. My boxer was gentle unless he sensed danger, then he became appropriately aggressive. My point is this: We do have a breed that is capable of aggression, but as all our posts amply prove, each dog is unique in personality, shaped by their experiences as they grow. Milly Ching had quite a different start in her forever home developmentally speaking than Chingy did at 8 or 9 weeks, and still different from Lily, who stayed with her mom til 12 weeks. As you can see their age at the time of placement as well as personality these chowlings will all respond differently to similar stimuli. IMHO follow your breeders suggestions. Even though chows are a unique breed, they are more like other dogs than they are different. It's the independence, not aggression that is different in them. And yes, they know which greek alphabet they are in your family.
Lily just hit 5 monthes, and though she knows I'm master of this universe she sees my 13 yr old daughter as the one she loves best, and the easiest to manipulate. She is well socialized but growls and barks at certain people she sees from the car as we drive down the road. She barks and growls at shadows too. She also did this to my dad when he came over yesterday, but it is a fear reaction, the day before she went into his house and greeted him fine. she has grown and changed so much in the last 2 months and Chingy is swifty growing too- with a firm command and patience, this too will pass.

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Post by Guest » Mon Nov 07, 2005 10:25 am

Okay, wow, it is very interesting to see peoples opinions of me and my dogs on here.
I would first like to say that the football game we attended was not probably what everyone is thinking, I live in a VERY small town, there was not that many people there at all, ALSO chi-ching did fine, he was not scared and he wagged his tail the entire time, I live a block away from the football field.
The halloween party that was mentioned, never happened. I made Chi-Ching a Halloween costume, but he wore it just long enough for a picture. He stayed in his crate while we took our daughters trick-or-treating. He didn't go out because I didn't want him to be scared of all the unusual people(in costumes) I wanted him to only have good associations with people.
My girls do NOT carry the puppy around, in the case of Chingy growling at Makaylah, that has all happened when my girls are SITTING on the floor, I will put the puppy in Caitlyns lap(3 year old) and she will pet him and he is fine, and then I put him in Makaylah's lap and she will pet him and he starts growling at her and tries to run.
The puppy has never been abused in any way, I did do the roll, one time and my kids were not even around. I did that as a reaction to him growling and trying to bite me for making him stop hump my friends pomeranian. He has never been accidentally kicked, stepped on or hit EVER.
His corrections are a raised voice and he gets put in his playpen. Have you seen the playpen he has?(I will post a picture of it) It is far from a punishment, I do not put him in his crate when he is in trouble but I do remove him from the situation.
He has been to ONE friends house and only 2 times, the baby incident was really an accident, I did not just leave him alone with a baby, I was sitting right next to him. And my sister was sitting right next to her baby. Also, my kids were not in the same room when that happened. Chi-Ching has also seen Skylar again and has no ill feelings to him, he actually went up and gave him a big lick on the cheek last week. We do try to have people come over so that he is used to certain people(my brother in law, my sister, and my friend. That is it) He has been to the vet a few times, sometimes just to be seen for a happy visit. I did have Chi-Ching taken to the groomers yesterday, and he didn't do too bad. He will be going back in 3-4 weeks.
My children are also NEVER left alone with any of the dogs we have ever had. I do not allow it to happen, even though I trust Koda with my life, I am not stupid and I know he is still a dog. My kids do not play outside in the yard with the dogs unless I am out there. I just do not allow it. I don't allow it inside either. If the kids want to play with the pup, I am right there. I know that he is still a dog and they are still kids. But this has been a rule LONG before Chi-Ching.

I feel like certain people think that I am abusing my dogs. I love them very much. ALSO, I would not give this dog up unless I have tried all my options and I would not have him EVER PTS unless I felt he was a threat to my family or himself(that being said, that would be after all other efforts have failed) I do not just give up on my dogs. I am kind of offeneded that some people on here would think that I treat my dogs badly. I appreciate alot of the advice from people on here. But, I am having a hard time wanting to come back here when I am basically being told I abuse my dogs.
I was told to socialize my dog alot, and then I am made to feel like he saw too many people or I did it wrong, It is pretty frustrating.

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Post by Guest » Mon Nov 07, 2005 10:26 am

Oh.....here is his play pen that he gets put in to play and to get seperated from certain situations.

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Post by Mandy » Mon Nov 07, 2005 12:34 pm

I think you are doing a fine job. I super socialized Chewie and he has turned out great so far. He was passed around to all sorts of people and has developed into a very loving boy. You seem to be handling your puppy in the same way (training style and all) that we did and we are infinitely happy with the results. Chewie is not allowed to growl at children either- we plan to have some someday and this would not be tolerated. You seem to be doing fine - I think people are just getting riled up. It's also difficult to interpret situations when we don't all know the whole story. Every one seems to raise their chows different - but we must also remember that they do all seem to have their own personalities. I doubt everyone should raise there dogs the same. I applaud you on looking for advice from everyone - I wish I had known about this resource when Chew was a pup. Just take it all with a grain of salt and if there is someone you want to speak to... do it by PMing. If you want to talk at all about how we train Chewie as a young male with the children in the neighborhood - feel free to PM me!

Mandy, Chewie & Ceyanne (we got our new girl yesterday!!)

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Post by Guest » Mon Nov 07, 2005 1:02 pm

Thanks, I appreciate it alot!

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Post by Taz » Mon Nov 07, 2005 2:11 pm

I think it's great that you take Ching to football games. :D
It's great socializing.
I have never said you abuse your dog, and I will never say that either.
I think you are doing a great job so far.
Puppies should experience allot when they are puppies, you should drag him to everything. Just be sure he has a good time. :)
The growling, I don't think it's that serious, he is still a puppy. :)
I was at my friends house today, and they just had a litter, only one puppy, and I played a bit with it, and boy did she growl.
Diego did growled as a puppy as well, but not serious growling, and I don't think Chings growling is serious.

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Post by Guest » Mon Nov 07, 2005 2:57 pm

I have been having Makaylah make him sit before he gets anything and he hasn't growled at all since we started so now the entire family is using the NILF technique.

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Post by Judy Fox » Mon Nov 07, 2005 4:19 pm

Well everyone - I told you I would not be popular! :wink:
I wrote as I see it.
Maybe in my family and extended family, we have a much more down to earth attitude to dogs and chows. :)
I am not an 'expert' on Chow Chow behaviour. Indeed, I had not heard of or seen any Chows until I brought Milly home. Then I met a Chow boy the other side of town and another elderly chow lady in the nearby small market town.
I have not heard of any nasty chows - I researched the breed thoroughly before I brough Milly to live with us and over here on The Island, as I have said before, Chows do not have the same dreadful reputation that they do over The Pond! :)
That certainly makes me wonder whether this habit of 'crating' and arty-farty training classes etc. etc. etc. is working.
We bath and groom our chow girls ourselves. If they are poorly we take them to the vet - if they are doing something we don't like, (which they very seldom do) we say 'Aah, No' - we take them for walks, play with them, take them in the car with us, they are extremely well socialised and are a positive delight to have in the family.
As Jeff says, they live alongside us as members of our family.
So, I will say no more and in future keep my comments to myself. :roll:
I should have taken the advice of the old Italian proverb which goes like this:

"Teeth placed between the tongue give good advice!" :)
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Post by kingalls » Mon Nov 07, 2005 7:22 pm

:D Judy - It's the English in you, me thinks :D . Personally, it's great to see the variety of posts and I hope no one is going to feel they need to be politically correct and not share their thoughts and experiences. Like I said earlier - we should all contribute our experiences and opinions and those that read them will take or discard what they need.

:wink: Karen

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Post by Judy Fox » Tue Nov 08, 2005 12:12 am

Karen,
Now I have cause to take offence - I have not one drop of English blood in my veins!! :D
I am full Welsh as my two preciouses are full Chow Chow!! :lol:
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Post by Guest » Tue Nov 08, 2005 10:21 am

Maybe you do disagree with crating and "arty farty" training, but it is essential here. I will never have a dog that is not crate trained ever again, they honestly love it. Obedience training is one of the best things you can do for your dog, they get special bonding time with you and it also provides structure and manners in your dogs life.
Alot of you keep saying that chows should be thought of as a member of your family, in a way, I agree. But I do not think of my dogs as my equal, if anything, they are like my children. In that my children have rules, they are not allowed to be aggressive, (hitting, kicking, biting, NOT allowed), They go to school and they have time outs when they are in trouble, I do not believe in spanking my kids and in that I do not EVER hit my dogs either. I am trying to have well rounded kids and also well rounded dogs, I am active in Obedience because I enjoy it and so do my dogs. Koda LOVES to go to training, he knows about 50 different commands as well as hand signals.
The pup and my daughters are doing better since we have showed him his rank was lower then the kids. He has to sit before he gets any type of treats, he gets hand fed his meals and it is my daughters that help with that. He has learned that if he wants anything, he has to earn it.
Everyone has their own way of training. We will find our own way and hopefully it will work for us. I really do appreciate all who tried to help me, for others, I am still very offended that you would even post that I would hurt my dogs or abuse them in any way.
I do not think that anyone should not say something on here but I really think that you should not judge someone and say things that are not true unless you can prove it or back it up. I have never abused a dog in my life. And I have also NEVER had to PTS a dog for anything that wasn't medically related, NEVER for aggression. I also NEVER take dogs to the shelter, I take them FROM the shelter. Any dogs that we rehomed I found them homes and did EXTENSIVE research to make sure it was the right home. I will read on here but may not post for a while, if there is anyone that would like to give any training or socialization tips, PM me, I will check that frequently.

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Post by Elaina » Tue Nov 08, 2005 12:42 pm

Whoaaaa, people! I haven't posted on this site in some time, but I have kept up with the other posts. All the information and opinions here have been valid and interesting. Its okay that we have differing opinions on who, why, and how. I feel its important that we, as Chow lovers, keep open minds on this unique creature, and assist each other with solutions to problems as well as share our experiences, both good and bad.

I am not an expert on the Chow. When we decided to adopt a Chow, I did research on Chows, using the old Chow site as one of my references. I appreciate all the information given to me and it didn't matter how it was presented or what someone thought...it was the additional information that was important. Since that first adoption, we have adopted/rescued two more Chows.

Chowlover, we are all humans. Keep posting because your experiences with Chows will be unique, just as everyone else's experiences will be unique.

Judy your insight has been very helpful. I may or may not agree, but it is important that you voice your opinions. You are across the pond and you help with a differing view. Guess what?! In this case, I have to agree with you.

To the others, the same plea from me. Keep posting. Remember if your assumptions are incorrect, there are people here to point you in a new direction, and if your assumptions are correct, you will point someone else in a differing direction. Because of you all, three homeless Chows have now found a home are now being spoiled silly.

I want to post my opinion to this dilemma, but I don't dare! *LOL* So for now,

Peace and Blessing to You All
Elaina, Max-A-Million, Mahayana, and Mei-Mei :D :D :D :D

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Post by Judy Fox » Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:00 pm

Elaina,

How lovely to hear from you again and to hear that Max Chow in a Million has two sisters (?) :) .

Chowlover, I never for a moment suggested that you hurt or abused your chowling intentionally. What I am sure I was saying was that in my opinion, your chowling was too young to be taken around and I still maintain that. You obviously differ in opinion. :roll:
I was just pointing out that I thought your little baby boy with a little baby boy body needed rest.
I suggested that your child hurt him UNINTENTIONALLY and I still suspect that whether you like that or not. You are offended - I am sorry. :(
You do it your way - I did it my way. I have a five year old Chow lady who is quite a character! I also have her litter sister who, as Lou pointed out, was rehomed with us at six months old and who still cringes when we put her harness on and who cowers when we try to clip her leash on! :cry:
She flinches when we stroke her head and panics when I raise my voice - (not to her or Milly but to my husband who wears hearing aids and sometimes I have to call him in from the garden for his lunch or whatever) - but Mabel panics and runs about until I get her and hug her. :cry:
Chows are incredible creatures and they never forget - Mabel hasn't - I wish she could talk to me and tell me what happened then perhaps I could help her forget - we are so gentle with her - but she still flinches, cowers and cringes and panics. :(
Anyway, I am sorry I offended you - I think all you Americans over the Pond are gorgeous and I do enjoy this site and corresponding with several privately.
However, I do consider that some of you "Think Too Much" and make problems for yourselves. :roll:
That is MY opinion and no doubt most of you don't agree with me. That is how the world goes round.
I would just suggest that my management with Milly Ching is tried and proven - granted this is unique to MILLY CHING and ME. I wish I had had my beautiful Mabel when she was six weeks old. In all other ways she is wonderful and once the lead is on she adores her walks. :)
Perhaps it might be a thoughtful excercise to ponder on what did happen! I suppose we will never know.

Anyway, this really is my last word on this matter.

Please accept sincere apology - diplomacy is not my best attribute but I do mean well.

Purple kisses from Milly and Mabel to Chingy and the other one - also to the little girls.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

p.s. Please do not withdraw from posting on the site - and I will promise not to comment again. :) As Elaina says, you are important on this site as are all of you.
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(Thank you Sweetpea for my new banner.)

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carolyn dewrance
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Post by carolyn dewrance » Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:17 am

Chowlover, I do not want to be drawn into the argument, so I will say this to you do the best you can and be proud of what you achieve, you will find that Chingy will settle down, and as he is only a chowling he has got to have space to grow, Love him disaplin him, and teach him right from wrong and if you ever need help you can email me at carolynd@storm.co.za and I will be there to help and advise you. If you get a chance to download my book on general discussions pages 5 and 6 called dogs in my bed you may find lots of advice in it to help you with the problems you may find arise during your chowlings life.
Please don’t leave we love seeing Chingy and want to know how he grows, and just how proud of him you are.
Kind regards
Carolyn
Carolyn Dewrance
4 Fernwood Close
Richwood
Cape Town 7441

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