Fair price?

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Joey
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Fair price?

Post by Joey » Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:12 am

I recently lost my darling blue chow and am slowly investigating the possibility of a new pup. I have been out of the breeder loop for 13 years, so looking again is all new to me. I am interested so far, in Domino Chow Chows and Eastway Chows, as well as Man Kou. And, I am also looking into adoptions, so that idea is not shelved. The problems are that we have a small 9 year old male dog at home, and we live in a highly populated area with lots of adults and small children, and we want a female specifically. Most of the adoption places are inclined to rule out their rescues for these reasons. If anyone else has ideas, feel free to reply. My main question however is to pricing. Everyone, seems to be asking a minimum of $2K-2500 for a pet pooch. I paid $1500 thirteen years ago. My girl was part of a show puppy litter, both parents, and grandparents. So, I assumed that was the correct area in pricing at that time. Even allowing for inflation, this sounds a bit much to me. Anyone know the going rates?

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applebear
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Re: Fair price?

Post by applebear » Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:22 am

My first two chows cost 250 each. First was a open face red rough female and 2nd was a close faced rough male [very showable, and his owners showed]. How times have changed....that male was the best dog I've ever had, and I found him in the paper.

Saying that, things HAVE changed and it is common to see pet quality for around 1800-2500+ from an ethical breeder. The key is finding one that is 'truly' ethical. So this is where I advice researching what to ask, what to expect to be asked, etc.. Making sure they are health testing, don't just take their word for it [my breeder lied about it, and I didn't know you could verify it at the time].

I guess really you're just asking price, but from what I've seen is the above for a quality Chow from an ETHICAL breeder. Honestly bybs and mills aren't charging that much less these days.
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Rory's Dad
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Re: Fair price?

Post by Rory's Dad » Tue Apr 05, 2016 6:18 pm

I answered Joey privately. And your right, times have changed. Quality, ethical Chow breeders are becoming rarer every day. Most Show Quality Chows are retained by the breeders for their own Show program, or for future breedings. Given that there are not a ton of good Chow litters available, breeders can charge a premium regardless of the actual quality tier the pup falls into. Most prospective buyers are going to rely on the breeder assessment anyway.

The advancement of the internet makes it easy for anyone who has a litter of pups to list them for sale. There is no quality oversight, and verification on the sire and damn is practically impossible. I have seen Chow pups listed on one particular website listed anywhere from $250 - $4000. Many of these litters aren't even born yet and non-refundable deposits are being taken. These folks can't guarantee gender, coat type, or color, yet they are taking peoples money. At the lower end of the scale, there is no guarantee that the dog is pure-bred unless you spend the money on a DNA test.

And even those that do list a warranty on health...wow. They are very restrictive and only cover a few items. Try to find a purchase that is protected against entropion. Even at the highest price point, it rarely happens. It's a known genetic defect, but the dog can't be returned. Bad hips or knees, sorry, but if you didn't have the dog xrayed at the initial vet visit and detect it within 7 days, outta luck.

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Re: Fair price?

Post by Joey » Mon Apr 11, 2016 2:19 pm

applebear wrote:My first two chows cost 250 each. First was a open face red rough female and 2nd was a close faced rough male [very showable, and his owners showed]. How times have changed....that male was the best dog I've ever had, and I found him in the paper.

Saying that, things HAVE changed and it is common to see pet quality for around 1800-2500+ from an ethical breeder. The key is finding one that is 'truly' ethical. So this is where I advice researching what to ask, what to expect to be asked, etc.. Making sure they are health testing, don't just take their word for it [my breeder lied about it, and I didn't know you could verify it at the time].

I guess really you're just asking price, but from what I've seen is the above for a quality Chow from an ETHICAL breeder. Honestly bybs and mills aren't charging that much less these days.
Thanks for your reply. I have had 2 chows in my life, both from breeders, so I am aware of the need, and caution involved with picking an ethical breeder. And, yes, easier to verify than most people realize. I think when someone decides they want a puppy, if a breeder actually has one available, they often jump at the chance and assume everyone is being honest and above board. They are not. I am trying to do my homework, and have been checking and double checking everything! I still find it shocking that people are asking these insane prices. Thanks again!

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Re: Fair price?

Post by Joey » Mon Apr 11, 2016 2:32 pm

Rory's Dad wrote:I answered Joey privately. And your right, times have changed. Quality, ethical Chow breeders are becoming rarer every day. Most Show Quality Chows are retained by the breeders for their own Show program, or for future breedings. Given that there are not a ton of good Chow litters available, breeders can charge a premium regardless of the actual quality tier the pup falls into. Most prospective buyers are going to rely on the breeder assessment anyway.

The advancement of the internet makes it easy for anyone who has a litter of pups to list them for sale. There is no quality oversight, and verification on the sire and damn is practically impossible. I have seen Chow pups listed on one particular website listed anywhere from $250 - $4000. Many of these litters aren't even born yet and non-refundable deposits are being taken. These folks can't guarantee gender, coat type, or color, yet they are taking peoples money. At the lower end of the scale, there is no guarantee that the dog is pure-bred unless you spend the money on a DNA test.

And even those that do list a warranty on health...wow. They are very restrictive and only cover a few items. Try to find a purchase that is protected against entropion. Even at the highest price point, it rarely happens. It's a known genetic defect, but the dog can't be returned. Bad hips or knees, sorry, but if you didn't have the dog xrayed at the initial vet visit and detect it within 7 days, outta luck.
Thanks for your reply. I don't seem to get any notices from this site and as you mentioned DMing me, just letting you know, it wasn't received. I will try to send you one, just to see if it is the site being wonky.

I agree that it seems like anyone with any available puppy feels they have a right to a high asking price. In terms of legitimate breeders, I guess I have to expect premium prices for all the reasons you've mentioned. I have rejected anyone who asks me to give them a down payment for a "pig in a poke" that is, requesting money that is non-refundable for an unknown quantity. That seems highly unethical regardless of a breeder's credentials or reliability. All that being said, the price tags are definitely sticker shock worthy.

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Re: Fair price?

Post by Rory's Dad » Mon Apr 11, 2016 5:45 pm

Responding just to let you know I got the notification. The site works a bit different than most. It will send you an email notice that you have a PM, but then you have to log in here to get it.

ancote
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Re: Fair price?

Post by ancote » Wed Apr 27, 2016 6:21 am

I need my first chow soon....... Its killing me... Hubby darling , listen

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Re: Fair price?

Post by Cindy J » Wed Apr 27, 2016 5:00 pm

If I were to ever breed both the male and female would have to have an AKC championship, plus health checks. In order to get an AKC championship I have to take my dogs around the country. It is expensive. I once did a little breakdown on what we were spending:
A basic tally of what it has cost us "so far" to actively campaign a show dog. :shock:

A basic break down:
$2,500.00 - purchase fee
$ 500.00 - gas, lodging, meals for trip to pick him up
$3,000.00 - initial fee

$ 300.00 - vet bills; basic check ups and shots. We are extremely blessed to have a healthy puppy.
$ 375.00 - weekly handler classes
$ 650.00 - crates, dryer, grooming table, brushes, special shampoos
$1325.00

$ 520.00 - entry fees to date. A couple of these were Pre-puppy shows and one was a IABCA show for more practice in the ring
$4,050.00 - gas, lodging, meals for out of town shows.
$4,570.00 - Thru 09-14-14

$8,895.00 ..... Information I need to keep in mind the next time my husband asks for something special

This does not even include food, training treats, and toys and PICTURES! .... and we only have 5 points so far. :mrgreen:
(hopefully the next few months will be more productive in the points department)
That was not even a full year of campaigning! Multiply that with two dogs... and a bunch more shows to finish the CH because we hit numerous shows without enough chows for a major...

SO... I don't think it is unreasonable to ask $2,000 - $2,500 for a puppy. To be honest I would never break even. A litter would simply be something that would be considered if I thought I could better the breed with a great pairing. Not as a way to make money. (just my .02 cents worth) 8)
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Rory's Dad
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Re: Fair price?

Post by Rory's Dad » Thu Apr 28, 2016 5:32 pm

Since I have 2 dogs that I show regularly, and a 3rd on some occasions, I really hate Cindy's breakdown. We are into the category of I don't want to know the real cost of getting my dogs to a CH. We are now onto a GCH for my two males. Yipes.

I do understand your breakdown though Cindy. And you haven't even added in any costs for birthing a litter. Vet bills can be ridiculous if the litter isn't born problem free at home.

My original thoughts were more toward the breeder that doesn't really ensure health, and who doesn't do the show routine to support the quality of the sire and dam. Obviously DNA testing and health certs add to that cost.

So, yes, when my dogs produce litters, and it will only be the dogs as there are too many issues with my female for me to even consider having a litter with her, all those added expenses enter into the equation because we have gone to the trouble (and expense) to verify that those dogs are worthy sires and have a better than average chance to produce top quality offspring.

What I don't like is breeders that simply find a mating pair and instantly think they are worth $3K apiece because they are Chows. And this is happening on a regular basis. They don't do any of the background work. There is no training, no show regimen, and no testing to ensure the joints or eyes are healthy. There is no CH designation in the pedigree, and most likely for good reason.

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Brisco
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Re: Fair price?

Post by Brisco » Sat Apr 30, 2016 5:51 am

I think that Dog prices in general are ridiculous these days. I live in Australia and paid $750 each for my two Chows 11 and 13 years ago. Our boy Brisco died a few months ago age just over 13. We just purchased another male black smooth coat for $3000. This is a crazy number, unfortunately, in all of Australia and in New Zealand I could only find 3 breeders with pups and then they only put you on a list with no promises until they decide who they might want to have one of there pups. One breeder was $2000 which I could almost accept as somewhat reasonable. The other two were $3000 and $3500. The dilemma I had as someone who has always had Chows and wants another one is that you have no choice but to pay the crazy prices if you want a dog.

These breeders tell you how expensive it is to breed and show dogs and that they don't make money, Boo hoo! The place I just got my puppy from had two litters with 13 puppies at $3000 each, that is $39,000 and that was only from 2 of there 4 females and 3 males. Firstly, people hate puppy mills because they are not about the dogs but about the money and purely business. Secondly, Good breeders that love the breed should be doing it because they love it and love the breed, NOT to make money at it. For some reason they think that we should entirely cover the cost of them enjoying there hobby and what they love to do???? Thirdly, Most of these breeders that I have dealt with over the years claim they spend all of this money travelling and showing there dogs and it cost a fortune. Showing your dogs does nothing to contribute to the quality of your dogs except on paper. They could breed the exact same dogs without ever travelling or showing any of them. What tops the cake is that many of these breeders then have the nerve to tell you, when you pay these prices that you then have to get your dog spayed or neutered or they won't sell you one. Or they won't give you the full papers with it so you can't show it yourself. If they think they are so special that only they can decide how to breed and with what bloodlines why do ALL breeders end up with some puppies that are not up to standard and are only sold as "pet" quality. Shouldn't the dogs that produced only a pet quality puppy then be spayed or neutered and not used for breeding again? If they truly believe what they say they should, for some reason they tend to think they are better than the rest of us. It's all pretentious snobbery and it really pisses me off if you didn't get that by now.
I'll be Getting a female in the near future and breeding mine just so I can sell some nice Chow puppies to people that just want a nice Chow puppy for a decent price and without being preached to about what they can and can't do with it. They will still have papers which show there bloodlines and pureness making them NO different or less than any other dog that is Shown or not. People should be able to go show there dog and "have a go" if they want to, even if there dog isn't "show" quality. Maybe they just want to go and have some fun. If they don't do well, so what? If they have any major faults they would simply be disqualified.


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P.S. No offense to you at all if you aren't one of the types of breeders I was talking about. I imagine only they will be the ones that get upset with what I've said, lets see who they are???
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Re: Fair price?

Post by chow4life » Sat Apr 30, 2016 6:06 am

Brisco- I personally love all of your comments =D=

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Re: Fair price?

Post by Rory's Dad » Tue May 03, 2016 7:14 pm

Well Brisco, that was quite the rant. And I can't say I blame you in some aspects. But some of the issue is the rarity of the breed in your area. If there are only 3 breeders in all of Australia, I would say they have a commodity. Now, i'm not saying that greed is a desirable trait, but if you are truly set on having a chow, then the market tends to dictate the price. Obviously those 3 chow breeders know that they have a limited supply and a captive audience. What would it cost you to import a dog from another country (if its even possible).

Quote: For some reason they think that we should entirely cover the cost of them enjoying there hobby and what they love to do????

Are you suggesting they should sell a dog at a loss? I do show my dogs. And a certain portion of that is certainly because it is something I enjoy doing. And some of it is to satisfy my own ego that I own great dogs. But mostly it is to certify that I have dogs worthy of continuing the best parts of the chow breed. Along with the judging of the dogs, we do testing that confirms the dogs have healthy eyes, ears, and joints. So, it's not worth more to have a pup that comes from dogs certified to not have defective hips? Genetics play a huge role in litter health. While nothing is guaranteed with litters, and even the best sire and dam can produce a pup that doesn't quite measure up, it definitely helps the odds to try to ensure the parents are healthy. Would you rather pay a couple hundred dollars more for a pup with a good heritage, certified lineage, and proven track records, or get the puppy from the guy on the corner. He hasn't incurred any of those expenses and can sell the pup for a lot less. But after 6 months at home, after you have grown attached to him and your kids love the dog, he needs hip surgery for around $3K per hip. Sorry kids, he's a $500 dog, not worth it...

Pretentious snobbery? Really. Have you ever even attended a dog show? Try it and see what you find with the show dogs and then compare. You will find healthy, well trained, and socialized dogs. None of those Chows that have given the breed such a poor reputation. They will have even temperaments that are accepting of both people and other dogs.

If you do get that female for your breeding plans, pay attention to the sale contract. Quality breeders will restrict use of there pups. In many cases, they will have to approve the mating pair. If you violate the contract terms, they can take the dog back and sue you for damages.

Not sure what the regulations are in your area, but generally if you have a purebred dog that is registered with the national registry, you can enter a dog show. Unless the contract prohibits it, you should give it a try.

Finally, consider a rescue dog. You can avoid all the issues you have described. Except they will probably already be spayed/neutered, so you wont be able to breed her.

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Re: Fair price?

Post by Brisco » Tue May 03, 2016 9:48 pm

Wow! you seem to be defending against everything I said, so you must consider yourself one of these "quality breeders". Firstly, I didn't say there were only 3 breeders, I said that I could only find 3 with puppies.
Secondly, Yes I have been to many dog shows and find many of the dogs to be very nice and many of the dogs bred so heavily to emphasize certain characteristics that they start to look like these Hollywood wives and all of there procedures trying to look perfect but end up looking strange and you just can't quite figure out why. Too many show people trying to change a breed to suit them rather than keep the breed like it was meant to be, and not just Chows, all breeds.

"You will find healthy, well trained, and socialized dogs. None of those Chows that have given the breed such a poor reputation. They will have even temperaments that are accepting of both people and other dogs."
I bet you The price of one of your puppies that my dogs are more well behaved and trained better or at least as good as any of yours. My dogs live with parrots, chickens, and cats. They will not chase the kangaroos or fight with other dogs. I haven't even used a leash for 10 years, they don't need it, show me another Chow that you can do that with. Even my 14 week puppy is already off of the leash already. They love the water, ie: river, ocean, pond sprinkler etc... I know Chows that won't walk on wet grass. Once again, just another example of snobbery, thinking your dogs are better because they are "show dogs"

"Obviously those 3 chow breeders know that they have a limited supply and a captive audience".
This is a terrible argument, You are just pointing out that they can charge whatever they want and don't have to sell at a fair and reasonable price. who's side are you arguing?

"If you do get that female for your breeding plans, pay attention to the sale contract. Quality breeders will restrict use of there pups. In many cases, they will have to approve the mating pair. If you violate the contract terms, they can take the dog back and sue you for damages."

This statement just proves exactly what I was saying. YES SNOBERY! I will NEVER buy a dog from some snob that feels they can make me sign a contract and tell me what I can and can't do with MY dog. Papers mean NOTHING if you aren't allowed to breed or show your dog anyway, I haven't even looked at my dogs papers since I got them 13 years ago. I chose not to breed mine just because I didn't want to, not because I wasn't allowed.

If we were talking a couple of hundred nobody would mind much, we're talking Thousands. Every dog that ever goes for a simple check up has his eyes and ears checked what ridiculous argument. And just because I don't show my dogs doesn't mean that I can't have there hips checked and cleared just the same as you. You do this once and then breed them for years and many litters, how many puppies do you have to sell to pay for a very simple and basic hip clearance, one at most. My neighbour just bought an Italian Mastiff from a "quality breeder" 6 months ago for $4000.00 she was just told by the vet that she has a hip problem. A lot of good it did her, she can give the dog back which she now loves, or even a partial refund to help with costs. The point is, It maid NO difference that there dogs were shown and money had been spent on them.

My brother got a German Shepherd a few years back just to discover that it had a very bad heart murmur and probably wouldn't make it to age 5. He drove 1000 miles to get this dog from a particular breeder with a good reputation, A lot of good it did him, NOT.

The argument works both ways. Just because you don't show your dogs doesn't mean you're going to have unhealthy or poor quality dogs either, that's my point.

I'm not against showing your dogs at all, so please all of you normal, dog people that just love your dogs and enjoy showing them and such, don't take offense. My opinions are all aimed ONLY at The Snobs that try to price gouge and dictate to the rest of us. If you aren't one of them, then, Good on Ya!
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Re: Fair price?

Post by Brisco » Wed May 04, 2016 1:31 am

Sorry everyone, even you Rory's dad. This was just supposed to be about crazy prices. That is really my only gripe, and it just can't be justified to me. It has started to sound like I prefer non-show dogs and that's not the case. I just don't think that it makes a better dog as long as you deal with decent people that do the right thing to start with.
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Re: Fair price?

Post by Rory's Dad » Thu May 05, 2016 6:17 pm

Thanks for the inclusion. And it has been duly noted that your post was only on price. It seems my explanation on what goes into some of the pricing issues also offends, so we can certainly discontinue the conversation.

Of course showing a dog doesn't make it better. It's just a tool that is used to affirm the quality of the dog for breeding purposes. As I said, there are never any guarantees, either with a CH achievement or with OFA testing, that the litter will be perfectly healthy. Both are designed for demonstration purposes.

So yes, I will defend quality breeders. Breeders that take the time to health test their mating pairs to ensure that there are no known health issues. Those that provide proper vet care and clean, safe living environments. I would also be the 1st to call out ANY breeder that doesn't produce dogs in an ethical manner. I have 3 dogs, and will NOT breed my female because I feel she has emotional defects and a personality disorder. I got her from the same breeder who produced my oldest male, who is a delight. My decision to not breed her will ultimately cost me tens of thousands of dollars, but that is being responsible to the breed. Ethically, I could not place any of her potential puppies, because I have a pretty good clue that they wouldn't be right. They might be fine, but since I have doubts, I have chosen not to breed her. I probably could breed her to either of my two Show males. Both are CH Show dogs. With the designation on the Sires, pups would probably be in the at $2K range. And if I was unethical, and just looking for the cash, I would probably sell the pups with a limited registration. I could make money on those pups, and just contractually limit the buyers from continuing the lineage.

And she is decent pet. Friends have suggested we rehome her to somewhere she is the only dog in the house. But, she can be sweet and affectionate. And then she will chew a table, scratch a wall until the plaster comes off, or lick the furniture compulsively. There are more reasons behind contract limitations than simple snobbery. And the days of 'pet store' dogs are well behind us, so I think you will find it difficult to purchase a pup without a formal contract.

Not to be too argumentative, but he testing I referred to is not simply a vet exam. For eye test, there is an injectable dye that is placed into the eyes that allow a deep evaluation. Hip exams can involve xrays, mri's, and evaluations by a certified specialist. They aren't cheap.

In any event, good luck in your search for a Chow. I wish you luck. Hopefully you will post shortly with your success story and pics of a wonderful new Chow pup.

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