biting chow

[donnasolddog]

hi,
i'm new to this site and am looking for help to keep from having to put down our chow. his name is barney and he is about 4 years old. last year he bit my husband for trying to get him out of the car. we gave him another chance telling ourselves it was because he was cornered in the car. yesterday he bit me on the hand. i reached down to take a stick out of his fur and that quick he got me on the hand. he has always be aggressive to the point that the only way to take care of the grooming issue was to let the vet put him under and shave him. i have to tie him to a porch railing so he can't bite me to trim the hair around his rear. none of our family will come around for fear he will hurt their kids. any help will be greatly appreciated

[bubba]

i want to help
i am in dover tn . stewart county up by the LBL


but i dom't really know how , maybe your town not so far from me , i would visit and speak with the chow

i have lived with chow that bit me .

if the world favors me i will have a place for that biting chow
the angry chow ranch where every bitining son of a B,, can fund a home

v/r
michael
\dover

there were sites i used to refer to with analysis a bout the types of agression but last i looked they were dead

please do not give up and kill the chow

my best regards
michael barry
barry@copper.net

[Rogansmommy]

The first thing you have to do is take the dog to the vet and see if there is anything medically wrong with him. Chows do not bite randomly or unprovoked. Illnesses or medical conditions such as thyroid problems could cause the dog to react. He could also be in pain.

The second thing you need to do, if the vet finds nothing wrong with your dog, is to hire a professional trainer and have them evaluate the dog.

[Jeff&Peks]

Your Chow has the same temperament as my Chow with the snapping and the biting , mine will snap at me When I try to trim her and she will bite anyone that try's to touch her especially Vets and Groomers. My Chow is 10 she has been like that all her life and will never change she couldn't be any more socialized, she is around people and kids all the time, all day and just about everyday of her life but will not tolerate anyone touching her except me and even with her letting me touch her I have to becareful with where and how I am touching her.. I don't have any suggestions for you except instead of putting her down try to find her a home with someone that has the patience and understating that can work with or live with a Chow like that.

Trying to get your Chow out of the car and you taking a stick off him I can see my Chow snapping at both those moves depending on how I went about it, If I pulled her hair or hurt her while moving her I would expect a bite but I know my Chow like a book and I know every move and every thought she has so I have learned over the years how to work with her. if you want to take the time and patience its takes to work with a Chow like that then keep him if not don't put him down rehome him, with the right person or couple your Chow will be fine.

You have had your Chow for 4 years it seems to me just from what you posted you don't understand your Chow or how he thinks. Personally I think all Chows are basically the same its just who the Chow is living with that makes the difference. I'm probably going to get alot of disagreements from the puppy people in here but your Chows not a puppy anymore and Pet-Co isn't going to fix him. Again DO NOT put him down, learn to understand him and how far you can go with him or find him a new home and get a Golden Retriever not another Chow.

[Auddymay]

Michael, according to my trusty Atlas, it looks like he's about 200 miles due east of you.

[Yvonne]

First of all, like Michelle said, you need to check for medical conditions such as arthritis or other ailments that can cause pain. Your husband trying to get the chow out of the car may have been painful if the dog has arthritis. One of the first ways I knew a chow of mine had developed arthritis was getting in and out of the car. Chows can be very stoic and handle a lot of pain without letting on; frequently the first symptom you see is that they will react when the pain gets to absolutely be too much. But a lot of times by then they've been hurting for quite a while.

Remember, animals have no way of telling us that they hurt like humans do, other than reacting when something hurts them.

Also, Michael might be able to help you. He posted above, he may be able to take the dog and give it a home. I would contact him before you put the chow down.

[Yvonne]

Or turn him in to a GOOD chow rescue location.

There are people that can live with a chow like that and love him, even if he doesn't have any medical conditions and his temperment is just a little grumpy.

A good chow rescue can have a better chance of finding people like that than you may have on your own.

[kiwani]

This link lists a variety of the medical causes of aggression, and describes the different types of aggression. There are also several fairly recent posts in the archives on thyroid dysfunction/serotonin imbalance/aggression.

http://www.shilohgtf.com/Aggression.htm

[bubba]

woo hoo ..good peoples and all better than me

i cross posted to chow world so wonder what all the kennel folk will say .

if anything ,, i am so often ignored

my dream ... 40 acres under wire , ponds /] i been in the fish world for a little while , Koi ]


a big sign " Angry Chow Ranch"
and plenty food avaliable and an air conditiontioned habitat available [[ to yet to be desigined ]

if the chow want to run like wild things in this containment , thats ok ....

if it comes to pass i will be sure to carry a good stick in the zone

i wish i had input to the pleader

barney ? peace ... i send thoughts to you Chow Dog..

mb
dover

chow keeper .. it is not from zero that this happens ... consider , and correct as is appropriate .. .. give that dicZ*k head the dog whisperer a call //
\ maybe a magic bullet can be found


to save the life
m

[Jeff&Peks]

I wish someday someone would post my Chow just ran across the yard jumped on me, bit my arm off and almost killed me, then we would all know the difference between a nip and aggression, 2 bites/nips in a year dos not make an aggressive Chow and I'm sure they weren't bites but most likely nips, if the body part that was bit is still attached to the body then it wasn't a bite. Her husband was trying to get the Chow out of the car and got bit, how was he trying to get the Chew out of the car, I'm sure the Chow would have a story for that one, my Chow bite me when I was pulling a stick off him, most likely pulled the hair along with it. From the post I don't see anything wrong with her Chow he's not aggressive nor has a medical problem we need to know exactly what happened, I can quarantee even bet on it if they thought about what caused the bite they will say oh maybe I moved him to rough from the car and Oh now that I think about it I did lean over with out him seeing me, pulled the stick off and took a hand full of hair with it. Poor, Poor Chows always getting blamed for everything and getting put to sleep when 99.9 % of the time its the owners that caused the problem because they never took the time to read up on the breed they have and think all dogs are just dogs then its the Chow that has to suffer.

[sixchows]

Jeff
I agree with you 100%! OJ is the same.Doesn't really like to be touched at all. We have him 9 years this coming October. He is a 1000% better now but still like you say some if not most of that improvement is from us knowing when and how we can approach him.

[donnasolddog]

chow owners,
please i mean no disrespect. we love our barney. he is part of our family. we take full responsibility for letting him get so anti social. it would truly break my heart to have anything bad happen to him. we have forgone friends and even visits from our family because everyone is afraid of this dog. i have been very respectful of him and take very good care of him. i cannot tell you how upset i was when this happened, not because he hurt me but because of the very thought he may have to be destroyed. we have a 5 foot fence around our property so he can run and not be a danger to anyone else, i just would like to be able to groom him and trust that he won't hurt me or anyone else. we have two other rescuse dogs and we take very very good care of all three of them....8i'm not looking for an instant fix but would appreciate some suggestions on how to handle his behavior.
thanks

[redangie24]

If he has always been aggressive and he has been yours since he was a pup your right its you that made him that way. Probably not on purpose, but he thinks he is in charge. Take him to a professional trainer who is familiar with chows and get him trained right away. A major change can be made with the help of a trainer. He just needs a little help to get on the right track. Do not give him away. Contrary to what some ppl think it is irresonsible and in some places illegal to give away a dog who has bitten anyone. If it comes to you having to part ways make sure you inform the ppl that he has bitten and under what circumstances. Take him to a chow rescue. However, is it really a bite? Did it break the skin? deep bite? or a nip? Either way training is the way to go in my opionion.

[kiwani]

Re: "i'm not looking for an instant fix but would appreciate some suggestions on how to handle his behavior."

There are studies showing links between dominant aggressive behavior in dogs and hypersensitivity/dislike of being touched, because of the way the brain chemistry is *skewed*. Training won't be effective in such cases until the brain chemistry is rebalanced, either with thyroid meds, serotonin meds, adrenal support, etc. Those would work at lowering the excitability chemistry and build the calming inhibitory chemistry. Chemistry changes behavior, and behavior changes chemistry.

[donnasolddog]

thanks to kiwani who steared me to a wedsite on aggression. i found canine rage syndrome, also known as behavioral seizure disorder. i immediately called my husband and read it to him and we both agreed that it sounded just like our barney...i plan on calling our vet tomorrow and discussing with her her willingness to work with us on finding out if this is barney's problem. we are new to this area so i don't know exactly what i can expect from her. in alabama where we are from we had an outstanding vet. we have encountered over the years vets who have told us the only fix for him is destroying him. this is the last thing we want to do.
thanks for all the responce to my plea for help

[Jeff&Peks]

Ok my Chow is a bitter, OJ is a bitter and Bubba says he had a bitter and almost all the Chows in here do not like to be touched by strangers and most likely will snap if handled or approached in the wrong way. I don't really think your Chow is as aggressive or mean as you say he is, I think in your mind because of the two bites you are making him out to be an aggressive Chow. You could go to a trainer but you have to be extremely careful with who you get, they have to know chows and how to train them other wise you will be making things worse. All trainer's will say they know Chows or they will say Chows can't be trained they are to mean, that's just an excuse, they are really telling you they know nothing about Chows but make sure they show you proof that they have worked with Chows.

If you know your Chow will snap at you then take some precautions, I never touch my Chow until I have said Pekoe and she looks at me then she knows I'm going to do something to her like pull a thorn off her, try to comb her or put her collar on, if touch her butt or touch her in the wrong place she won't snap but she will first try to get away if I push it and force the issue she most likely will snap, if she is sleeping and I have to step over her I say Pekoe as I approach her so she knows I'm there, in other words I always let her know before I touch her or I'm approaching her, actually she always knows it's me and doesn't care but I do it anyway.

You have to take him out on walks so he exposed to people and other dogs, he needs to get out in the world and see whats going on, when people approach you and want to pet him you just say thanks but he really doesn't like strangers to touch him no big deal the majority of people understand.

When Your family and friends visit let your Chow see who's coming into the house but tell them to just leave him alone and ignore him after awhile your Chow will most likely approach them, when your chow does come to them let him sniff them but tell them not to touch him then after a few visits and your Chow gets use to them they will be able to pet him if you have children over tell them not to touch or bother him even if he comes to them most likely your Chow won't go any where near them anyway..If you have alot of children coming over then you probably should put him some where away from them but try to make it a place where he can see them and see what kids are all about. Maybe fence off a piece of the yard like I did, we have kids and people walking in and out all the time but if there is going to be kids staying and running around I put her in a fenced area then she justs lays there and watches them play that way she see's what's going on and realizes they are all brats and noisy.

No one is saying you are disrespectful its your opening line of Should I put my Chow down that caused a problem, NO you shouldn't put your Chow down. Also you can't really say its your fault that your Chow is acting this way, it could be a combination of alot of things, rough handling by a Vet or Groomer, maybe he got hurt once by someone or when your husband tried to get him out of the car, it could be alot of things, the trouble with a Chow once you or anyone does one wrong thing they never forget it. When we first adopted my Chow (Pekoe) she was the all American perfect Chow except she growled at me every time I came near her for the first two weeks but that was understandable because she belonged to an elderly lady and probably wasn't use to having males in the house but she was good at the groomers and vets never snapped at people, did just about everything right, very well trained but over time with spoiling, not handled properly at the vets and a combination of a few other things she became a snapper with a big time attitude.

One of you two are going to have to take a firmer hand and show your Chow who's in charge of your household and that doesn't mean yelling at him or hitting him if he snaps you say NO firmly and mean it but you have to be consistent someone has to take charge in your house, it sounds like it's the Chow that's running things and you all are hiding in the corner.

There is alot of information and advice on this site that deals with your problem you should go back and read some of it, look for Melanie's post she has alot of good advice. You are probably going to get post saying that type of behavior wouldn't be tolerated in their house, that your Chow is aggressive and dangerous it should be put to sleep or rehomed, ignore it, that's all fine and dandy but your Chows not a puppy anymore he is the way he is you will just have to learn all you can, work with him and understand your chow, I doubt you will ever cure the snapping but you will be able to control it.

Most of the advice on this site I feel deals to much with Puppies, all most all books on Chows are the same its all about the Puppy no one ever talks about the adult Chows. In the old chowchow forum there was alot of advice on the older Chow but that's all gone, when I first adopted my Chow my mentor was Victory, Pekoe was raised on just about everything she said, to me Victory is more into what a Chow is all about and seems to know the thinking of a Chow and deals with problems in a more realistic and practical way so look up her post also. If you take the time and work with and understand yor Chow it will all work out in the end.

[kiwani]

"See the studies of the Chow, in which approximately 50 genetic diseases have been shown to result in aggression:

Control of Canine Genetic Diseases.  George a. Padgett.  (1998:   Howell Book House) p. 199.
Genetics of the Dog.  Malcolm Willis.  (1989:  Howell Book House).

Behavior Problems in Dogs.  William E. Campbell.  (1975:  Goleta,
CA:  American Veterinary Publications, Inc.) p. 88.

Dog World:  Thyroid Can Alter Behavior by Jean W. Dodd,
D.V.M. (October 1992) pps. 40-42.
http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/whybite.html

[chris]

WOW Jeff.. that's pretty long winded for you. Is that a record post?

[Rogansmommy]

Good advise Jeff, and I totally agree.

Rogan is what I would put on the 'friendly' side of chows. It is only in rare situations (if the person is nervous, pushy, etc) that he will snap. Typically, he ignores people pretty well. However, there are many situations where I know that if I pushed it, he would feel the need to tell me otherwise.

Toenails -- hates it. Has always hated it. No matter what, he cannot be trained to tolerate it. How I deal with it? He goes for long walks on concrete. Industrial civilizations 'natural' nailfile.

Lots of kids, not just my son. If there are more than 2 kids in the house OR a kid who just doesn't get "Leave the dog alone", he will 1. relocate or if the kid doesn't listen 2. snap. Chows naturally give one warning bite.

If he is in pain, especially his knees. He's got luxating patellas. If I accidentally brush over his knees while grooming, he will turn around with the "Be careful!" look.

If he is being boarded -- they CANNOT touch him. No one has ever gotten close enough to test this (the baring teeth and growling are pretty intense). Again how this is dealt with? He boards in the same kennel with our rottweiler. They can do anything to Nina. So they leash Nina, say "Come on Rogue" and he will follow her anywhere.

Chows are amazing dogs and it's been my experience that they are just like people in that they get set in their ways. Everyone can live happily together if you know how to read his signals.

Also, about training. All trainers will say they understand chows. Many don't. I think on this site, we've found 1/2 dozen between all of us that really 'get' chows. Now, those 1/2 dozen are worth their weight in gold, but the remaining bunch are nothing but frustrating for us and the chows. I don't trust a trainer/vet who jumps immediately to PTS for agression in a chow, simply because EVERY chow, depending on the situation, could look aggressive. If a person's only contact with Rogan was through boarding, then they would assume he was aggressive. Instead, he is a very stable, self-confident chow.

[Jeff&Peks]

Chris, Yep that took all I had, I had to take a nap after that it wore me out, Everyone always accuses me of not having any tact so I thought I would try something new, trying to be nice. Being nice takes way to much work its exhausting. It's easier just to say, Kill yourself and save the Chow.

[chowfrnd88]

I'm glad that you were able to find some info that may lead to the cause of his aggression.

The others have given some really, really great advice. I just wanted to tell you that our ~2 yr. old male nipped me and bit my husband a few months ago. Both were incidents of miscommunication. It's like the others said, it has a LOT to do with learning their signals. I very much misread Special's signals. While yes, it is unacceptable that they bite us, I was an idiot and ignored really blatent signals that I'm too embarrassed to even mention here (even our bahviorist laughed at me when I told her)!

We're lucky, Special likes people and is curious about them and never ever snaps. If I'm grooming him and pull his hair he licks my hand to slow the pace of grooming. But he had DID have an issue with food aggresison related to particular treats, that was our hiccup. Like the others said, depending on what the underlying cause is, you could see a trainer. We saw a veterinary behaviorist who turned out to be wonderful (it was a miracle because like the others said, it's a risky business finding a trainer or behaviorist who doesn't stereotype). In fact, she told us that in our case it was not a dominance issue at all. I just wanted to tell you, don't give up and don't feel discouraged, there are really are answers and thinsg can calm down, but you will have to put in effort, whether it's just in the form of reading signals better (of which I had to do a LOT) or training excercises. You mentioned that he bit your husband last year and you only recently, that's a good sign that it's not happening frequently. Not to make light of the situation, but with us, Special bit me one week and moved to my husband the next week! Imagine how stunned we were!

Anyhow, I hope that I've made you feel a bit better about things. Jeff is right though, Special is still young and I an't even imagine what's waiting for us in the next few years! I know our situations are different in a lot of ways but I wanted to share our experience. Good luck!

[chris]

Jeff.. are you sure that Pekoe just didn't pick up your additude because she hangs out with you to much?

I just wanted to say that I agree with everyone. Take the advice.. I have recieved so much from these guys that has helped me and in turn I have tried to help others as well. Im not a novice Chow owner, I have had 2 others but it had been so long since I had a puppy, I forgot.
I also agree that, maybe victory, melanie, Jeff and the rest of you that have experience in adopting older chows should put together a book. OR.. put an adult chow owner section in the chow book that is already in progress.

We had to put Grizz down. She bit my son, but not because of what he was doing.. (laying on her while she was trying to keep cool.. it was hot out) but because she was in pain. We didn't even know it. She had arthritus BAD. We brought her into the vet to consult them about why she bit Mikey. Well, they did some tests and exrays, and thats when we found out. The vet was surprised as heck, and was surprised that she hadn't bitten Mikey before. (Mikey always layed on her) Don't get me wrong, Grizz was not a young dog by any means. And she gave us the signal that it was time. But like everyone has said, there is usualy a reason for everything, they don't just BITE or NIP for no reason. Unless they belong to Jeff... Just kidding

Keep us updated on what happens. Good luck.

[redangie24]

To find a trainer who has really worked with chows good places to check with are your local Chow Chow club, local reputable breeders, and if you have friends with chows ask them who they used or if they have experience ask for thier help. Good breeders are very good resource since they have a commitment to the breed and want to do what they can to make sure every chow has a good rep. and good family.

Rogansmommy- Wow boarding that understand to just leave her alone. Nice there seems to seems to be very few of them around anymore. I am lucky that I only have to take a few minutes to do intros. All my dogs have been really good, but I have taken them early on and kept with it even if not needing it too much.

Jeff, I find it harder to put info on older chows sometimes since it needs to be based on the personlity of each chow. There is always something that works it is just finding the right thing. The fist couple of times I just wrote everything I knew or a couple of things, but I am getting worn out so I know now to just let others do it first and then just put my 2 cents on what is left. I do really rely on training though because in my experience it has never gone wrong when done right. I myself don't do much beyond basic for my pets since they are as social as I want them to be no threat to us and do the basics. Like I don't want them to be happy with every stranger that comes by. Or run off with just anyone, but I myself am somewhat anti social. I come off a whole lot nicer on here than I am in real life.--- But my mom was amazing with her bad boys/girls. To this day she just has this something special that they all respond to. I wish I had her gift and could pass it on.

[Jeff&Peks]

Chris, see if I ever write you another story and after all that hard work trying to be nice.

[chris]

awww.... you know I love ya Jeff....