Really ticked off

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Kahlua
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Really ticked off

Postby Kahlua » Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:35 pm

So this post is going to be a rant post more than anything...

I posted several messages on the board a few months back about how my chow pup (Kahlua) might have Entropion. After purchasing him from the breeder I researched on the AKC registered website, I contacted that breeder (Linda Fernandez in Oregon/Vader Washington/Cherub Chows) to get a pup. I did a great deal of research on the breed and didn't think much of entropion since I figured I'm getting him from an AKC breeder with papers (plus I didn't know what to look for or even what entropion looked like). When I arrived at her dog farm (and I say dog farm because she had about 30+ chow chows with 2 litters already born about 2-4weeks), I should have heeded the warnings signs. Her dogs were muddy and uncared for, and she seemed to live there alone. I filled out some papers and she gave me my pup (cream colored chow) who was absolutely dirty and there was mud all over him. She claimed he had been playing with the other pup on the farm... and I'm sure he had been... but since I paid more than a grand for him... you'd think she would have cleaned him up a bit. She never used the words "entropion..." but mentioned that chow chows normally have runny eyes... She grabbed one of her chows... whose eyes were completely shut and there was mucus everywhere...he couldn't even open his eyes... she preyed them open and there was slim covering his whole eyeball... she told me this was normal in the breed and that all I needed was some terramycin to rub on the edges of my pups eyes and I'd be fine. I wanted that little cream pup so bad I didn't mind, I figured that wouldn't be an issue with my pup.

12 vet visits later (several of which have been to an eye specialist for tackings) and $$$$ money spent... he's still not better. I read some posts on this forum that when I get the eyes tacked I should wait till he's a bit older to see if he will grow out of them. And he hasn't. The vet quoted me at about $900 per eye... and I've already spent well over 3k for this pup already. Don't get me wrong, I love him to death and I'm so glad I chose a chow chow above any other breed... but I'm upset. I'm upset at the AKC website for standing behind puppy farm breeders, and I'm upset the breeder wasn't completely truthful with me. I know my story is common, and I'm sure there have been so many people duped into purchasing unhealthy puppies...

I guess the takeaway from this is... be extremely careful when deciding to purchase a puppy (possibly adopt)... the AKC website isn't always 100% the best source to use when deciding on a breeder... check your breeders history and research before you dive right in. If something seems fishy, then there's most likely something going on.

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WyoChowDad
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Re: Really ticked off

Postby WyoChowDad » Thu Dec 04, 2014 5:25 pm

I remember your post. Entropian is possible no matter how good or bad the breeder. I've had several Chows and two needed entropian surgery. If your vet is charging $900 per eye I would find another vet. I've had both done successfully for $500 total. Do you live in the west? I ask so that I can refer you to a good vet if you're not too far away. I think your vet may be taking advantage.

Rory's Dad
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Re: Really ticked off

Postby Rory's Dad » Thu Dec 04, 2014 5:40 pm

Terribly sorry to hear of your experience. I have no personal knowledge of the breeder you speak of, but I can that it sounds like your instinct upon visiting the farm was correct. I will have to research it a bit more, but I do believe that to become a Breeder of Excellence with the AKC, you have to have CH parents and produce some CH pups out of that mix. Unfortunately it does nothing to control the other 98% of pups that come out of that breeder.

I currently have 2 chows.

Rory is my 3 year old male. He finished his CH in August. He was the breeders last choice out of the litter and we chose him based on an instant bond with my wife. He has had no health issues whatsoever and has the greatest disposition I have ever run across in a Chow. To this day she still will sneer at that dog and tell me if she knew we were going to AKC show him she wouldn't have sold him to me. I don't get it in the least.

Amber is our 2 year old female and came from the same breeder, different parents. So after a year, the breeder knew my intentions and recommended this pup as a good Show candidate. She has never performed extremely well and has 'the goop' in one eye. She has no damage to the cornea from entropion, and after repeated visits to the vet, they still can't decide whether or not it is or if its an infection in the eye (1 and 1/2 years later). They scope and dye her eye to no end, but see no scratching. She does seem to have a lash or two that is at eye lid level and not going out, but not in either.

So, it seems that you have had a different experience with the conditions you describe. In my case, I know the breeder facilities are up to standard. There is no history of entropion in Ambers lineage. Sometimes that does just happen (Rory finished with a crooked tooth that is not genetic).

Your breeder was DEFINITELY either incorrect, uneducated, or downright misleading when she told you that the eye issue is normal. No Way. To show you other examples is ridiculous. It could actually be an infection in the other dogs given the conditions you describe, but it seems like you have a lot of medical support to show entropion in your pup.

Sorry for rambling a bit. I don't know what the regulations on breeding businesses are in your area. I would suggest a look into that and if it appears in violation of local standards, report them. I would also make sure to post your feedback on the conditions to the AKC.

Also make sure you communicate the issues and concerns and costs to the breeder. Reputable breeders guarantee against health issues. Take a look at your contract to see what they covered. Many certify against entropion within a certain time period (but not all, again it isn't always something they can avoid). Even if not part of the guarantee, they may offer to help get the pup healthy, particularly if they are pressured with reports to the AKC (threatening their standing), or to local health agencies (do they REALLY want an inspection of the property).

Kahlua
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Re: Really ticked off

Postby Kahlua » Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:28 am

WyoChowDad, I live up here in Seattle Washington. The Seattle Animal Eye Clinic is one of the only places around the area... I might try to find somewhere a little further away to see if I can get a better price. Thank you, and btw... your pup is gorgeous (if he/she is the one in your profile pic)

Rory's Dad, thank you for providing your own personal story with entropion, it eases my concern knowing that they may have eye problems that won't necessarily scratch their cornea. I have taken Kahlua into the eye specialist for 4 visits total for a total of four tackings... since he was 12 weeks old (he is now 7 months) before the vet suggested surgery. He knew it was entropion for sure when we first took him in as a pup. His eye lashes were rolling into his eyes, causing goo to run from them... and the vet suggested we tack them in hopes they will correct themselves so the surgery would not be necessary... but unfortunately this did not work. I also communicated my concerns to the breeder, but the breeder does not protect against entropion. The breeder gave me a 48hr window to return the pup if there were any health issues, so upon getting Kahlua we took him to the Vet immediately... my vet found no issues with him (we ended up switching vets), but they were wrong. I have tried to contact the breeder on many occasions, but she always seemed to be very defensive and would simply tell me not to worry.

It sucks that I had to go through this, but I love my pup very much. My main concern are for the other chows on the farm. I will do some research and look into contacting the AKC. I could care less about threatening her standings or getting anything out of her (not worth my effort at this point), I just want to make sure her chows are taken care of and not being neglected and breed just for $$$$.

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WyoChowDad
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Re: Really ticked off

Postby WyoChowDad » Fri Dec 05, 2014 8:35 am

I'm sorry you live so far away. I'm in Cody Wyoming. I have 2 vets here that have done great work correcting entropion. I feel lucky that we are in the country and vets still charge reasonable rates. Yes, the Chow in the picture is my girl Misha. She just turned 10 months old. She came from Chengden Chows in Tennessee. Her sire was from Hungary. It seems her breeder is doing a good job. She's really got it all and I feel very blessed. She recently injured her knee. It's not very bad and she shouldn't need surgery thank goodness.
I've read here in the forum about others who had trouble with Cherub Chows. I considered buying from her but then I found Misha.
I know how dedicated you are to Kahlua. It doesn't matter what's wrong, he's part of your family now and you'll take care no matter what. He's so lucky to have you. It breaks my heart when I see Chows that needed entropion surgery but never got it. Cataracts are formed when it goes untreated. Sometimes you can get it corrected and as the dog ages it will need a touch up. My male Nikita needed a revision at about 8 years old. He was a beautiful Chow but had entropion. I took care of it and he did just fine after that.
Once you get Kahlua's surgery done he'll do fine. It's not that big a deal for the dog. I'm sorry it's so expensive where you live. I wish you both the best. Let us know how things turn out.

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JasonandNat
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Re: Really ticked off

Postby JasonandNat » Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:44 am

FuShiLu had it and bad, both eyes completely shut, one got infected. But only one visit is necessary, maybe, maybe one more to tack a corner that a stitch let go. FuShiLu has had nomproblems since and this happened before she was even a full year old. She does have one blue eye due to the infection, but that hasn't affected her vision, just ask the birds and squirrels piling up. Sorry to hear your issues, but they are known for the breed. fuShiLu has also blown out both rear knees and naturally recovered them both on her own. And we will have issues with her right hip when she gets older.

Do I hold the breeder responsible? Not unless I wanted to give FuShiLu back. That was a call we knew we would never make. She was to replace at least some of the hole left by FengHuang's sudden passing. She became part of our family the day I flew her home, would throwing her out have solved anything? Woukd another Chow really prove to be better? We never thought about changing any of the choices we made or were offered. ShenLung was chosen for us (his brother has is already Canadian/American champion) because we wanted two and FengHuang had terrible underbite (that we corrected with patience as she grew to perfection) a FuShiLu was pet quality available when we both along with ShenLung were terrible depressed. We would not change our choices, every moment with them has proven the most joyful time in our lives. ;)

onyxarabians
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Re: Really ticked off

Postby onyxarabians » Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:29 am

Hi Kahlua, I have 3 chows from Linda Fernandez of Cherub Chows. She just keeps sending unhealthy puppies to people and taking there money and being extremely rude about. I am posting my experience and a copy of her email back to me just this morning. You are welcome to email me personally at onyxarabians@ymail.com I am sharing this with everyone so they will also be aware of Linda Fernandez of Cherub Chows. We bought a male chow chow from her that we almost lost a year and half ago at just 3 years of age. We thought he also had bloat or was impacted. Emergency surgery was done on him and he did have a blockage how it was due to he had small liver disease. The smallest liver the vet had ever seen. His gall bladder was also enlarged and already has cirrhosis of the liver. He did make it thru the surgery $3000.00 dollars later. Vet said he was born that way not to breed him. We asked Linda to replace him as he was bought as a show/breeding chow. She refused. Right after that we DNA's this boy and he came back NOT matching his sire. After weeks of waiting on a correction. They finally found his true sire. I have 2 other chows by Cherubs chows that I bought before we found out about the other having liver disease. We are now going to DNA the cinnamon male Prince. I contacted Linda to let her know and ask if his parents were correct. Basically she doesnt care and if he doesnt she wont do what is necessary to correct it. I paid $2000.00 for the cinnamon boy and his cinnamon sister I paid $2500.00. The unbelievable part of this is she is an AKC breeder of merit.... Here is a copy of her email back to me this morning.
Re: DNA
People
cherubchows@centurylink.net Today at 10:40 AM
To
me
I don’t care.
From: Jettie
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2015 8:33 AM
To: cherubchows@centurylink.net
Subject: Re: DNA
I hope it is correct Linda as several people have puppies by him.
And if its not right you should correct it.
Please share to prevent anyone else going thru this heartache. I have had the worst luck with what was supposed to be upstanding breeders.

onyxarabians
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Re: Really ticked off

Postby onyxarabians » Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:37 am

Also forgot to mention the cinnamon girl I got from Linda Fernandez of Cherub Chows doesnt have entropian but has extreme allergies. She looks like she has entropian because her eyes are always tearing. She has constant hot spots and is always itching all over and chews her feet. The checked her bloodwork and the part related to allergy problems was off the charts. There is no food or shampoo that will stop her from itching. I have vet records for both dogs. She was also bought as a show/breeding chow for $2500.00. Her and her brother were shipped to me in filthy and matted conditions. They smelled like they had never been out of a dirty kennel. Forgot to also mention my girl came with fungal ear infection and is still prone to them.

Rory's Dad
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Re: Really ticked off

Postby Rory's Dad » Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:11 pm

Onyx, can I ask how it came to be that you have 3 chows from this breeder and have had so much trouble? Just wondering how it got to that number with such poor satisfaction.

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Re: Really ticked off

Postby rmb » Fri Feb 13, 2015 4:31 pm

Wow, what a sad story. I feel for your poor female who is seemingly always miserable. And, I feel for the poor breeding dogs and their pups on that chow chow farm. I only by chance have an adopted pure bred chow chow. This type of story is why I've always adopted from shelters. I know, I know, we don't usually have any idea of the history of shelter dogs and maybe I've been really lucky to find healthy dogs that have made wonderful pets. I just can't condone the '"business" of breeding when there are so many dogs out there ready to love. I'm sorry to hear of your troubles.

onyxarabians
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Re: Really ticked off

Postby onyxarabians » Sat Feb 14, 2015 11:35 am

Because I bought the 2 cinnamons before Dragon had his impaction and was diagnosed with small liver disease or I never would have bought another. Also my cream male was not sent to me in the condition the 2 cinnamons were. The problem with major organ issues is they are so vague and serious symptoms dont show up until there is a crisis event such as a blockage.

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Re: Really ticked off

Postby Rory's Dad » Sat Feb 14, 2015 8:20 pm

Thanks for the response Onyx. I hope my question didn't come off as critical, I really was just wondering. Of course timing of purchase and the onset of any problems is a consideration, that's why I asked. I think it's important for other people to understand that not everything is evident in a pup. Genetic issues can surface later on, so it's really best to do as much research as possible on all breeders. OFA testing is a great indicator of the health of the parents and is something to look at when choosing a pup. Not done as much as it should be, but if more litters went unsold it would force the responsible breeders into at least getting their breed stock tested for defects.

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Re: Really ticked off

Postby Sirchow » Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:16 am

Good breeders do not have 30 chows or call their kennel Cherub chows. This has puppy farm written all over it. Breeders who show and care and breed for health and to improve the breed would not call their kennel such a clearly enticing name. Walk away folks from places like this. Breeding chows should have health certificates and the breeder should want to interview you before letting you have a pup...if they dont then they dont care...walk away. You should feel like you jumped through hoops to get your puppy. You also need to ask a lot of probing questions....there are whole threads on here devoted to questions to ask a breeder and what to look for.

I am so sorry for those who have already bought pups and get this kind f response but if you don't report them to the AKC and keep reporting them then they wont be stopped. What a sad introduction to such a wonder breed. :(
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Siriol, Bramble, Izzie and Isla.

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Re: Linda Fernandez, the nut-case

Postby NatFlem77 » Tue May 05, 2015 7:06 pm

I got my two kiddo's from Linda Fernandez in 2011. A boy and a girl. My sister, who drove with me to pick them up, and I still laugh hysterically when we remember that day. Linda is a clear fruit-cake and we're pretty sure she was high on something. When people ask if my babies were rescued... heck yes, they were! Rescued from a loony breeder! Her property, and how the dogs are contained is so sad... I wished that I could have brought all the dogs home with me. I got the babies home, got them fixed and we've been a happy little family. Lola is definitely small even for a female (my little dwarf), and she has the short snout syndrome (heavy breather, snores LOUD), and has a sensitive little belly. But, overall, she's a healthy little ham. Bob Seger had to get the eye surgery on one eye, the lids were growing inward. Since the surgery, he's been just fine. Both are well-tempered, very loving, funny rascals... but still maintain that aloof chow-ness. I'm not a first-time chow owner, but this was my first experience with a breeder. The environment that Linda provides those precious animals is awful and the only reason I'd refer her services to anyone would be to help get the dogs away from her and to good homes... they need rescuing.


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