new puppy chows with older chows advice please

[catalinabrat]

We have two eight year old chows, brother and sister, very loving and raised in a home with four daughters. They are really good chows and protectors of the home and family. We just got two new chow puppies; same breeder, very wonderful puppies; also brother and sister. The puppies love the back yard and have taken over. They want to play with our older chows, but the older ones don't want to. The female as come around slowly, but has snapped at the puppies. Sugar is the older female, and she doesn't want to play at all. Hunter the older male doesn't want to have anything to do with them either. The puppies run and Hunter runs away. If the puppies get too close, he growls and snaps. We brought the puppies to them and they turn their heads away. The breeder told me that maybe I should let the elders come around on their own and not bring the puppies to them and they will come around. I'm asking for advice from fellow chow owners any other opinions you may have. These are outside chows as well. We've had the puppies in the house at night for the past two days because we're not sure yet on leaving them unattended, but in the day they are outside as they will be like the others. Any help is welcomed.
Vanessa

[ski]

I wouldn't force the issue. Just let relationships develop.
All the dogs spend their time as outside dogs? That seems a bit strange to me. Our chows are like family and are with us constantly.
Good luck with the new puppies!

[catalinabrat]

I'll do just that, I think you're right about letting it develop. We have two cats in the house. Our back yard is really beautiful. They have like an enchanted garden to be in, so it's not like you think. We are always outside. We cook outside all the time and eat outside with the family. So although I would love to have them in the house, it's hard. But the puppies right now are in the house a lot. Maybe they'll develop some relationship with the cats, I don't know. It's work in progress. I appreciate your reply.

[Rory's Dad]

Keep a close/watchful eye, but I wouldn't worry a whole lot based on what you describe.

The puppies are going to be high energy and are used to litter play. This involves a lot of wrestling, nipping, and finding boundaries. They will figure out what works with each other and then try it out on the older dogs. They are not going to be interested in playing so much and will also establish their own rules. If they want to just relax and sit in peace, then they will snap. The puppies will understand not to challenge that. As long as you don't have baring of teeth and outright brawls, then accept it as just maintaining a personal space.

I agree that the issue shouldn't be forced. They will develop their own bonds and you might be surprised how that aligns. Just make sure that it is closely monitored, don't display favoritism to either 'group', and are established as the leader of your group. Watch 'Lion King'...lol. If the older ones are perceived as weaker, or the young ones as vulnerable, then you may see some challenging going on.

For now I would also recommend some separation. Allow the older dogs their space and the young to rough-house with each other. Consider it down time. But don't make that full time. Encourage some together time, but only interject if it gets argumentative. Exploring is OK.

[catalinabrat]

It's pretty amazing how you have my situation "on spot" as if you are here. Yes, the elders are just sitting peacefully and giving their position that they don't want to be bothered. There was no teeth showing; but the first day there was. It's a downplayed right now. The puppies seem to understand where they are coming from. I do have them separated; and when they're not, someone is around. We are listening quite closely. We keep the puppies in the house at night. And yes, I've seen the Lion King many times, and I know exactly where you're coming from. The elders aren't weak. The female is very loving and she's trying to come to the puppies, but she runs away when they chase her, and that's them playing. She's not ready to play, but is trying to meet them. The male is the dominant one and just stays way the heck away. He's a good chow and we are giving them all some love and affection. We understand there's no favorites here (well, kind of, puppies are cute) but we all come out in the yard and make sure the elder chows have some attention. With a house full of girls, it's nice these dogs have lots of love.
I copied your post and gave it to each one of my daughters to read so they can understand as well how to handle this. This was all very good advice and I will take this with great emphasis all your points.
I'll update in a few weeks and let you know how it's going. This is quite a learning point here and I appreciate you taking the time to respond. Thank you.

[Cindy J]

Rory's Dad gave some very good advice!

When we brought Chance home, the two rottweilers were not exactly thrilled. They were kept apart from him for a few weeks. Introductions were made one on one and very limited at first.

I am going to give you an example of what transpired when I let Chance have some time in the yard with my 5yr old rottweiler (both males). Chance behaved like any normal puppy; very playful very mouthy. Nipping at the Rottweiler's legs and jowls. When Niko had enough he would "ROAR" much like a lion king. Chance would back off and reassess the situation and then charge back in and resume the nipping crazy play.

I sat back and watched with mild curiosity because my male rottweiler is extremely gentle with puppies and small children. Niko finally got fed up with the biting and took Chance's whole head in his mouth. He did not apply any pressure, but he told Chance to back off in a very firm manner. I have to admit that I was a bit apprehensive, but trusted Niko enough to let him work it out.

You have to REALLY know your dogs and their limits. We did not allow unsupervised play until Chance was 4-5 months old because he would start rough housing, but was not strong enough to fend off the full body tackles of the two adult rottweilers. Once he was about 6-7 months old, I stopped worrying so much when they have full yard tackle/chase sessions.

[catalinabrat]

Thank you, Cindy for your story. Very interesting and good knowledge. I'm thinking that the pups will be housebound at night for that long too. We want it to work, so that sounds like something to know in advance how long it takes. And yes, Rory's Dad gave solid advice we are taking with full appreciation. I have got the separation factor going on. Since I've read these opinions, things are going well. It's still full supervision and the puppies get to learn how to be in the house at night. I think they are liking it, along with the family, and it's working. I understand the roughhousing and am seeing that that kind of play isn't fun for the elder since the puppies' teeth are so, so sharp. They went for Sugar's leg and she barked, but they were fast and we didn't get a chance to pick them up before it happened. As long as the elders are just chilling on their side of the yard, they are being okay, and we're giving them attention. I didn't realize how much work it was to have this age gap in dogs, but it's a family decision and we are all helping out. We've had chows for three decades, but only two at a time. But the puppies came along and now we have four. It's amazing the learning that still goes on with this breed. But they are my favorite breed of all.

[catalinabrat]

Thank you, Cindy for your story. Very interesting and good knowledge. I'm thinking that the pups will be housebound at night for that long too. We want it to work, so that sounds like something to know in advance how long it takes. And yes, Rory's Dad gave solid advice we are taking with full appreciation. I have got the separation factor going on. Since I've read these opinions, things are going well. It's still full supervision and the puppies get to learn how to be in the house at night. I think they are liking it, along with the family, and it's working. I understand the roughhousing and am seeing that that kind of play isn't fun for the elder since the puppies' teeth are so, so sharp. They went for Sugar's leg and she barked, but they were fast and we didn't get a chance to pick them up before it happened. As long as the elders are just chilling on their side of the yard, they are being okay, and we're giving them attention. I didn't realize how much work it was to have this age gap in dogs, but it's a family decision and we are all helping out. We've had chows for three decades, but only two at a time. But the puppies came along and now we have four. It's amazing the learning that still goes on with this breed. But they are my favorite breed of all.

[kingalls]

After our Chowboy, Nahkohe went to Rainbow Bridge, we adopted a German Shepard mix - he was about 9 weeks old. Our senior Chow, Shiloh, was not pleased to have this bundle of energy pestering her at every turn. At first we kept them separate or if they were in the same room, made sure the puppy didn't bother her. After a while we decided to let Shiloh to "work it out" with the puppy. Shiloh snapped back and growled at the puppy. The puppy would go into submissive mode but still kept trying to challenge Shiloh. We will "side" with Shiloh to show the puppy who is boss. When he "messes" with Shiloh too much, he is put outside until he calms down. Shiloh takes priority over everything - treats, food, walkies, etc. The puppy needs to know that Shiloh is "top dog".
It is very funny to watch the puppy bring toys to Shiloh to perhaps initiate some type of play. In the mornings, the puppy will go to our sleeping Shiloh and nudge her head to wake her up. Given that Shiloh is not a "morning dog" he has to wait for any acknowledgement of his antics.
Anyway, whether other Chows or other non-Chows, a young pup and a senior Chow will take some patience for them to work things out.