Am I being too sensitive?

[Bilbo'sMom]

Hi all:

I want to know if I am being too sensitive about this, coddling my Bilbo too much.
I interviewed a trainer yesterday that came highly recommended by my veterinarian and I really don't think he knows what he is talking about.
This was a "pre-training" where they tell you what and how to teach your puppy until the real training starts at 12 weeks. This guy told me that when Bilbo gets all hyper from 8-10pm and starts nipping at me, if he doesn't listen to me after the second time I say NO, that I should lightly slap his face/nose!
I told him I didn't think that worked with chows and he said that I needed to understand that the dog was not a toy or a baby and that I needed to establish who was boss, he mentioned Cesar Millan and being the pack leader, etc.

This is the only bad advice he gave, but I'm thinking it's a deal breaker right, I should totally NOT call him back?

Do you guys think if I can't find any trainer who only uses positive reinforcement that I should just train him myself or should I take him to training and just make sure no aggression towards him when he does something wrong? HELP!

[Me & Tess]

Bad advice. Never ever slap a Chow (or any other species including humans) in the nose or face. It would only break the trust. Positive reinforcement is best. I would definitely find another trainer.

[Sirchow]

Chows so easily loose trust and once broken is so hard to get back. Distraction with puppy chews, non contact play, exercise and most of all time will help. We have had two absolutely dreadful nippers/mouthers (my husbands dog nearly drove me to leave home!) and two who never ever even tried but all four are equally reliable as adults now and none were ever slapped. They mostly grow out of the whole mouth thing once they finish teething and grow up a bit. Definitely time to interview another trainer or two and well done for asking the right questions before you were too far down the road. Positive reinforcement all the way

[Bilbo'sMom]

Thanks so much guys!
I will definitely NOT be calling this trainer back. Will keep interviewing and using positive reinforcement in the meantime. On a more positive note, I finally found puppy gymboree (socialization) in Santo Domingo, this Mexican vet who moved here opened a place. Bilbo starts on monday Will ask there to see if they have obedience training for later as well.

[Constantina]

Yup you were not being too sensitive. Smacking any dog especially a chow on the face is a red flag. Do not call this guy back. My hubby once did the Cesar Milan flip to her side and pin her down by the neck move on Chestnut when she was mouthing us at 3 months old. My submissive timid chow growled and struggled. She did not go near my hubby for a full month and would turn her back on him. She would only greet me and would crouch and play dead in her open crate if he was alone with her. She was a baby and she resented him for breaking her trust.

They are ok now but when we go to the vet I have to be in the car with them or she won't step out. The trust is gained back now but she has wary moments with him.

[Rory's Dad]

You were absolutely right in your reaction to this so called trainer. He apparently knows nothing and even less about chows. Anyone that quotes Caesar Milan in his sessions is a complete moron. Caesar may obtain fair results with some breeds, but since its all edited for television, its hard to tell. I can say for certain that the one episode he aired with a chow was unsuccessful. Not sure whether they bothered to air that for anti-chow propaganda, but it sured seemed that way.

In any event, you never want to train any breed of dog with negative consequence. I dont care if its a golden retriever or a pom, if you react by smacking a dog on the nose you have lost trust and confidence. Who needs a fearful dog? If you hired a nanny to take care of your children and the same thing happened, who would you be calling next?

The behavioral result in chows is even worse. Chows are naturally headshy. We work endlessly to get over their sensitivity, which is due to a lack of peripheral vision, and then somone suggests you smack them on the nose. Seriously, the result will be a dog that presents teeth to any hand that approaches his head. I can't state enough how ridiculous, stupid, and dangerous this is.

Just once, i wish these 'experts' would admit to a Chow owner that they have no experience with the breed. Even better, if they offer that sort of advice, they shouldnt be 'training' any breed.

Bilbo...most of these training sessions should be geared to you and teaching you how to get the dog to behave the way you want. They are based on YOU learning hand signals and a reward program. If the dog responds to your command, when you say so, they get a reward (food based, or praise depending on your preference and the dogs response). Aside from that the classes, if group based, are a good socializing opportunity for the dog.

[Pinoy51]

As everyone said, you did the absolute right thing to let go of this guy. He apparently never worked with Chows and even for other breeds his advise his highly doubtful.
The method of using direct contact to achieve behavioral change is called "positive punishment" ,because you're adding something (force) and you actively address negative behavior. Vs "negative punishment" where you withholding something but actively address negative behavior (time out, no food, no walk, no treats etc.)
then you have the reinforcement categories where you address actively good behavior, obviously positive reinforcement is the most common, can't think of any negative reinforcement (maybe removing negative behavior triggers from the dogs environment).
Anyway the point I want to make punishment is and should be part behavioral corrections and shaping. But like positive reinforcement it needs to be done correctly.
It has to be timely and with a calm state of mind, which unfortunately is the most neglected part. Most owner punish out of frustration or anger and therefore there is a strong negative connotation with punishment.
Everyone who has more than one Chow will see that positive punishment is normal among dogs.
fletching, sharp bark or pushing the other dog away.
I'm using blocking, starring among others with good success. Key is, that this has to be the immediate answer to unwanted behavior, it has to be a controlled action and you need to be calm while executing. If done correctly there won't be any breech of trust or any other unwanted "side effect". It works, if you train yourself in being calm assertive and in addressing immediately. Never do it out of frustration after minutes of verbal correction attempts and never slap or any other form of ambush technique.

[Bilbo'sMom]

Ok, now I am really really confused and frustrated. My puppy is IMO perfectly normal for a CHOW (kinda dominant and independent, but also very friendly with everyone in my building and in the dog park).
The puppy gymboree / clicker trainer did the alpha roll thing on Bilbo on Monday. I was so shaken up I didn't know what to do, he did this after Bilbo nipped him pretty hard when he was changing out the collars, but I just think this is wrong somehow. The trainer did this and also told me I needed to hold Bilbo in a submission hold by pressing down on his neck several times a day for a short period of time. WHAT IS THIS!? Was this guy basing this on some accepted training or just being impatient or ignorant? How can this in any way help me with training?
I just feel SO bad about this, even if the puppy is somewhat dominant he is a very sociable and sweet dog, isn't there some other way to train him that doesn't involve holding him down while he squeals in fear and defecates? Also, I've noticed that my puppy started getting aggressive with me yesterday whenever I had to put his collar on him which he had never done with me before, I think he is scared now of getting the collar put on I was so upset I couldn't even write about this until today, I cried when I came home monday I just felt I let that guy be abusive to the puppy, it just all happened so fast.

FYI- behaviors that I need to correct:
1-nipping at fingers and hands (am using victory's advice of time-outs and ignoring him which is helping a lot, but hasn't stopped completely)
2- nipping/biting on my pants when we are on walks and he wants to either change directions, greet someone or go slower (don't know what to do about this one, advice most welcome)
3- scared of the car (am working on positive association, letting him have favorite treat in car and going to park in car)
4- pee (every once in a while he will try to pick a new spot to pee in instead of where I put the wee wee pad, maybe he will grow out of this? he is almost 100% housetrained and will not poo in house)
5- at night the nipping issue: during 8-10pm if I play with him at all he will nip very hard because of over excitement.

Is my puppy really a "problem waiting to happen" dog like this guy implied? I thought these behaviors where pretty standard for his age and the only reason I was training was because I am 4'11 and he will be a big dog.

[Sirchow]

This kind of thing actually makes me quite angry. I am so sorry you and Bilbo have been treated so appallingly!

Your puppy is being a puppy. Why some trainers feel the need to remove all of the dogs personality and individuality says more about the "trainer" than the dog. Your puppy bites and hangs off things cos that's what puppies do. The best thing is to forget the negative and replace it with as much positive as possible. (that includes your trainer IMO) Start by carrying a large number of treats in a small bag at your waste or only give Bilbo half his food and keep the rest for training.

When your puppy approaches you and looks to be lunging for a leg or a hand grab a treat and move it slightly backwards over his head and he will automatically sit. Reward immediately...repeat several times till he can sit every time and start saying sit and expecting a sit. Use the hand movement too if necessary to remind him what he needs to do. Then move on to a down. Keep your hand very gently on his bottom whilst sitting and lower your hand with the treat to the ground. As soon as he is down reward and repeat. Repeat and reward till he will lie down reliably and then use the verbal command with the movements. Keep teaching more commands a baby step at a time. Make him wait a moment for the reward and say wait. Well you get the idea. Now when puppy approaches you with teeth ready you say sit, down, wait and reward. Keep adding things in as your puppy learns. Now the puppy is being rewarded for not biting and has forgotten (to some extent!) that he wanted to bite so you pick up a toy, squeak it and fling it across the floor and puppy rushes off. No alpha rolling necessary and no scared puppy just fun and learning.

If this was my situation I would forget any more classes and try to get together several times a week with some older dogs who will teach your puppy manners (a free for all with three or four puppies doesn't really teach your baby anything) to walk and play together. Socialization, meeting new owners and a tired happy puppy. Your puppy will grow out of this behaviour 99% of the time if he doesn't ever feel he has to defend himself. It is puppy behaviour but put him in a situation where he has to defend himself and is really frightened (and bullied) and he might find he needs to continue biting things. JMHO

Here are some other ideas to try as well for those times you dont have rewards to hand http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwHk3o3P5cw

[Sirchow]

This should cover all the training you will ever need....and remember it is the owner who mostly needs training. Once you know what to do the puppy will learn from your behaviour. I am a huge fan of Dr Dunbar

http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/dr ... s-top-faqs

[Cocoa]

I agree one hundred percent with Siriol, your puppy is just being a puppy, I would not return to those classes either. We didn't do puppy classes, just lots of socializing on daily walks, trips to the pet store and parks (although personally I don't go to dog parks but that is a whole different conversation). We would make social visits to the vet to visit the staff and just get her used to going there to make it a positive experience. Also remember that he is teething at this stage and will want to chew on things, make sure he has lots of appropriate things to chew on, toys, nylabones etc. and offer him those when he wants to chew on you. Cocoa was a fiend for pant legs, sweaters (anything hanging loose that she could grab) at that age, particularly when she was doing zoomies. It just takes time, patience and consistent training (Siriol's advice regarding the treats and sit commands are spot on). One thing I did during that period, when Cocoa went into full on zoomie mode I would stay out of her way and let her run the energy off.

Unfortunately chows have long memories so thanks to that trainer you are going to have to work with Bilbo to get his trust back when you are putting the collar on, once he is reminded that putting the collar on leads to good things (walkies!) he should get past it in no time.

[Rory's Dad]

I will 2nd the agreement. Rolling a puppy/dog is never acceptable and is really bullying him. As a puppy he isnt strong enough to battle back, try that when he is full grown. But that really isn't even the point. Think ahead a bit to a full grown Chow. They will need vet inspections. I have both an intact male and an intact female. I need to be VERY certain when my female is in heat. And how am i going to know that? I need to take a look. Amber has been trained since 9 weeks to let me see her underside. She will flop over and show me her belly at a moments notice. (Not so much my male, but he allows it). No chance a dog that has been tackled into submission is going to allow that.

Stop going to those 'classes' and demand a full refund. They are counter-productive and are NOT going to produce a happy, well socialized dog.

Replacement therapy is best option for chewers. In tough cases, i can even see a spray bottle filled with water (usually only takes a couple spritzes) to save your heirloom furniture.

Puppy classes, as has been stated, are to teach you the basic hand signals and vocal commands. They are not about breaking a dog. Your chow is going to retain certain traits no matter how he is handled. IF he has selective hearing, as most do, you need to identify a treat to get his attention and to respond appropriately. A cowering Chow is going to do neither.

Puppy nipping is normal regardless of breed. Whether he is looking to play (watch a litter of puppies at play, its what they do), or pulling at your pant leg for attention, this is normal. He should be taught that it's not a desired behavior and they will grow out of it. Nobody wants an adult chow biting at them for any reason...

Work with what Siriol has posted on sitting and down. Ask again when ready for most stuff and we can instruct.

Remember what should motivate your dog...YOU and FOOD. Use these items to get the desired behavior. Time outs (sequestered away from you) and 'no treat for you' should be all that is needed. Anything more negative than that absolutely will backfire.

I'm with Sir on the angry issue...trying to plan a family vacation to Florida, but the Dominican is nice and i could include a visit to dog whisperer wanna be.

[Bilbo'sMom]

Thanks so much guys, I feel better having heard from all of you that he is not a little monster dog and that this guy was way out of line.
I am so upset with this training thing because I was trying to be all responsible and both trainers I had contact with have been awful. Will keep doing all the stuff you have recommended and forget about puppy class and trainers for now, they would end up ruining a perfectly wonderful dog.
Thanks Sirchow for your advice, we have Sit perfected but Down has been a challenge so will start with your tips and see how that goes.
Will keep you guys posted. Also, I am using a no pull harness and genius trainer said that was not good and I should use a martingale collar, is this correct? Thanks

[Cocoa]

Okay, just throw away any advice that the "genius trainer" has given you, he is obviously an idiot. If you look through the site you will find that a lot of the members have had great success with the Easy Walk (no pull) harnesses. I used one with Cocoa from about 6 months to 2 years, she was a real puller and very strong. I don't use it anymore because I don't need to (although I will still use it in the winter when it is snowy/icy), but I know lots of people use them for the dog's entire lifetime. If the harness is working for you that's great, keep using it.

[chowpups]

Agreed with get rid of so called trainers! I too had a trainer try to alpha roll Nikki to demonstrate and she flipped out! ( Very much like your pup did) we left and never went back I didn't even care if it was non refundable ! My chows future meant more, Nikki was fine from it but ,I probably suffered more from my own feeling I let her down! I ended up using training tips from here! I used a martingale collar for training and walking my chow and I too am 4 11" and it worked but I do like the Petsafe easy walk harness better for just walking my 75 lb golden retriever who use to pull when she'd see the neighbor kids playing. I can see why the trainer said martingale ( if you do a search of martingale collars you will see different types on here and I can only speak for the kind I used) you probably get better control while in a training class with a martingale, a short little pull and they feel it and hear it! But I definitely like the harness for a puller and think it stops a puller better!
Nikki would get overly excited as a pup and nip and we did time outs in another room separated by a baby gate and a strong verbal ( not screaming) NO biting ,she would be in the kitchen for 5- 10 min. Until she calmed down, and biting my pant legs Yes, she did it and again repeat the above!Also give them a toy that they can chew on too! Nikki turned out just fine no biting issues, loved kids and other dogs and people I couldn't have asked for a better chow! Puppies will be puppies you want to see a pup pull on pant legs get a golden retriever!!!!!! LOL
Good luck and ask away when you get stumped!! Nice walks and play time! Makes a tired happy pup!

[Ursa's daddy]

I am a big fan of harnesses, especially for chow puppies. Ursa quickly showed me as a puppy that she would back up and pull out of a regular collar. The harness solved that problem. I think it gives me lots of control because I can shorten the lead to make the dog walk directly at my side, and in necessary, a slight upward pull will lift the front legs off the ground. That is serious control if you really need it. My two know if I get the harnesses off the hook, that means they are going somewhere. Happy barks, happy happy barks. It doesn't matter if it is to the vets, it is a road trip, and we may make some other stops just to have fun.

The Victoria Stilwell video is exactly the way to handle the mouthing.

[Bilbo'sMom]

Thanks again am using my harness and using the advice and tips I got from you all. We started learning Down yesterday and he is ok at it when he doesn't get frustrated that the Sit didn't earn him a treat LOL.

Am working on the mouthing and will just try to be very patient about this and not be alarmed unless it keeps on after he is 5 months. Fingers crossed that I can train him well enough by myself

[Rory's Dad]

If he's got the sit, try moving to a 'combo' move to avoid frustration at not getting the treat.

Have him sit with either the vocal command or a hand signal. Get the treat he has earned and take it to his nose, and then down to the floor and toward you/away from him in an L pattern. Vocalize 'down' and you are doing it. Reward when he is down. As he gets it, you can hold out the treat and repeat the pattern...Doggy Push Ups. Sit, down, sit, down.

Try not to mix down when you mean off. Its tough to remember to distinguish for us humans, but important if you happen to have one of those dogs that likes to jump up onto people or furniture, etc.

Your pup will usually pick up the hand signal quicker than learning the vocals, so be sure to do them in combination.