Aggression
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IliamnasQuest
- Rank 3
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- Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 8:04 am
- Location: Alaska
Aggression
I'm posting this separately because there have been a couple of posts about dog aggression and I've also had a number of posts privately regarding aggression problems. I just don't have time to respond to everything right now (catch me in the middle of winter when it's dark and cold and I can be on the computer more! *L*). This post isn't pointed towards any one person or dog - it's just a mix of my thoughts on aggression and what to do.
Most (not all, but definitely most) dogs that act aggressive have either not had the socialization they should have had or they do not have the leadership in the family "pack" that they need. Every dog is different. Every dog has a different leadership need. When we're talking about independent breeds like the chow, akita, shiba, etc. there is generally a higher need for thorough socialization and leadership than an easier breed like a golden retriever or lab (although I've seen aggressive dogs in those breeds too). Taking on a chow, however, is definitely a huge commitment and one not to be taken lightly.
In my eyes, a dog should not ever feel it has the right to aggress without real provocation. Lunging at another dog just because the dog is there isn't acceptable. Snapping at a person just because the dog doesn't want that person near them is not acceptable. Regardless of how a person feels about their chows (and I love mine as much as a person can), we still have to be logical and keep in mind that they are dogs and therefore they do have to be understood as dogs. The humans in their lives have to set the boundaries that the dogs live within. Some dogs can have very relaxed boundaries, some dogs have to have very definite boundaries. It's all very individual.
Ideally a person starts with their puppy and socializes it properly. That means taking it to places and giving it very positive, happy interactions with people and other dogs. Socialization does not mean the puppy stays in your home and interacts primarily with your other dogs and family. Socializing takes a real effort on the part of the human.
And then - again, ideally - a person continues on as the dog matures. They take the time to set up controlled interactions with "safe" dogs and people, continuing on with the socialization as the dog goes through adolescence and into adulthood. They stop by the vets and groomers on a regular basis just to get the dog used to it - taking special treats and having people greet their dog happily. They introduce their dog to the mailman and the UPS guy and the dogs in their area. It takes time, but this time is priceless.
And as they go through all this socialization, they find out what kind of dog they have. Is it a dominate dog that likes to play rough? Is it a laid back dog that seldom causes trouble? From this they can set up the rules that their dog needs to follow in order to establish a proper leadership.
These rules include things like going through doorways (humans go first), going up stairs (humans go first, dog NEVER passes), playing with toys (humans control all toys), getting treats (dogs must give behavior before treats), getting attention (dogs may not demand attention), getting on furniture (dominant dogs should not be on furniture), having free roam of the house (dominant dogs should have restricted access). All of these rules help establish - in a kind and calm way - that the humans are above the dogs in the hierarchy.
The reason I find this to be so important is that it's natural for a dog to defer to the pack leader or those higher up. Without a leader, the dog feels it must take on that leadership role and that's when problems start to happen. If a dog thinks that they are the top dog, then there's no reason to listen to the human when situations occur that (in the dog's mind) require some sort of aggressive action.
It's hard when we take in a dog that has an unknown or difficult past. The baggage they carry can be pretty scary at times. In those situations, the leadership will be very important too. Setting the dog up from the beginning to understand that while they are loved now and taken care of, they must follow certain rules will help a great deal when unexpected baggage appears.
I know that to some this whole "rules" concept is difficult. We want everything to be happy and rose-colored without having to set strict rules. But this is important to the dog. Dogs need to understand where they are in the pack - when they do, they are happier and more relaxed. Not all dogs are good as leaders, and if they feel they have to take on that role because it doesn't seem to them that anyone else is, then they won't be comfortable in the role. By giving them the ability to understand that the humans will take care of things, we're actually treating our dogs better than we would if we left them in limbo.
Once the leadership is established, the rules can often be relaxed. I have a couple of rules that are absolute. The dogs NEVER pass me on stairs. That's a safety thing as much as anything else. They also aren't allowed to mug me for treats. They have to listen if I give a command. But I'll push open the back door and let them race out. I let them on the bed. I don't always make them do something for a treat. But I am also well established as the boss in this house and so I can get away with relaxing the rules because they just plain don't challenge me or my authority. And I have zero problems with aggression at this time, even with five dogs.
I know it's kind of hard to see the correlation at times between your dog being aggressive to other dogs and your leadership over your dog. But there IS a correlation, and establishing your leadership will probably help to a certain extent. It will take awhile though!
Another thing is that most of our dogs don't get nearly enough exercise. A tired dog is a happy dog! Walking on a leash is not sufficient exercise for most dogs. They need to run and play and move freely. That's a difficult thing to do with a dog that's not socialized too. If your dog isn't trustworthy off-leash then it's important to find a fenced area or a large indoor area where your dog can run and exercise several times a week.
For those having aggression problems, it's very difficult to assess an aggression problem over the internet. A person really needs to observe what's going on and see the precursors and the triggers so that a plan of action can be put together. There isn't a blanket fix for all aggression. You can't go wrong with leadership and using Nothing In Life Is Free principles, however. That's a good start. And then you can do some desensitization from a distance, lots of rewards for non-aggressive behavior, and gradually move in closer (over a period of days, weeks, months).
Remember that aggression almost always builds - it doesn't just happen suddenly with no signs ahead of time. You may have missed the signs, but they were there. If your dog has shown aggression (especially if it's to people) then it's your responsibility to keep your dog away from those things that cause the aggression until you can get it all figured out and the behavior changed. And you may never change the behavior - some dogs have it so firmly ingrained that you can't do much about it. In those cases, they have to be kept confined so as to keep others safe.
I wish everyone luck - and I hope that those reading about the various problems people are having will take a good look at their own dogs and think about rules, leadership, socialization and exercise.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
Most (not all, but definitely most) dogs that act aggressive have either not had the socialization they should have had or they do not have the leadership in the family "pack" that they need. Every dog is different. Every dog has a different leadership need. When we're talking about independent breeds like the chow, akita, shiba, etc. there is generally a higher need for thorough socialization and leadership than an easier breed like a golden retriever or lab (although I've seen aggressive dogs in those breeds too). Taking on a chow, however, is definitely a huge commitment and one not to be taken lightly.
In my eyes, a dog should not ever feel it has the right to aggress without real provocation. Lunging at another dog just because the dog is there isn't acceptable. Snapping at a person just because the dog doesn't want that person near them is not acceptable. Regardless of how a person feels about their chows (and I love mine as much as a person can), we still have to be logical and keep in mind that they are dogs and therefore they do have to be understood as dogs. The humans in their lives have to set the boundaries that the dogs live within. Some dogs can have very relaxed boundaries, some dogs have to have very definite boundaries. It's all very individual.
Ideally a person starts with their puppy and socializes it properly. That means taking it to places and giving it very positive, happy interactions with people and other dogs. Socialization does not mean the puppy stays in your home and interacts primarily with your other dogs and family. Socializing takes a real effort on the part of the human.
And then - again, ideally - a person continues on as the dog matures. They take the time to set up controlled interactions with "safe" dogs and people, continuing on with the socialization as the dog goes through adolescence and into adulthood. They stop by the vets and groomers on a regular basis just to get the dog used to it - taking special treats and having people greet their dog happily. They introduce their dog to the mailman and the UPS guy and the dogs in their area. It takes time, but this time is priceless.
And as they go through all this socialization, they find out what kind of dog they have. Is it a dominate dog that likes to play rough? Is it a laid back dog that seldom causes trouble? From this they can set up the rules that their dog needs to follow in order to establish a proper leadership.
These rules include things like going through doorways (humans go first), going up stairs (humans go first, dog NEVER passes), playing with toys (humans control all toys), getting treats (dogs must give behavior before treats), getting attention (dogs may not demand attention), getting on furniture (dominant dogs should not be on furniture), having free roam of the house (dominant dogs should have restricted access). All of these rules help establish - in a kind and calm way - that the humans are above the dogs in the hierarchy.
The reason I find this to be so important is that it's natural for a dog to defer to the pack leader or those higher up. Without a leader, the dog feels it must take on that leadership role and that's when problems start to happen. If a dog thinks that they are the top dog, then there's no reason to listen to the human when situations occur that (in the dog's mind) require some sort of aggressive action.
It's hard when we take in a dog that has an unknown or difficult past. The baggage they carry can be pretty scary at times. In those situations, the leadership will be very important too. Setting the dog up from the beginning to understand that while they are loved now and taken care of, they must follow certain rules will help a great deal when unexpected baggage appears.
I know that to some this whole "rules" concept is difficult. We want everything to be happy and rose-colored without having to set strict rules. But this is important to the dog. Dogs need to understand where they are in the pack - when they do, they are happier and more relaxed. Not all dogs are good as leaders, and if they feel they have to take on that role because it doesn't seem to them that anyone else is, then they won't be comfortable in the role. By giving them the ability to understand that the humans will take care of things, we're actually treating our dogs better than we would if we left them in limbo.
Once the leadership is established, the rules can often be relaxed. I have a couple of rules that are absolute. The dogs NEVER pass me on stairs. That's a safety thing as much as anything else. They also aren't allowed to mug me for treats. They have to listen if I give a command. But I'll push open the back door and let them race out. I let them on the bed. I don't always make them do something for a treat. But I am also well established as the boss in this house and so I can get away with relaxing the rules because they just plain don't challenge me or my authority. And I have zero problems with aggression at this time, even with five dogs.
I know it's kind of hard to see the correlation at times between your dog being aggressive to other dogs and your leadership over your dog. But there IS a correlation, and establishing your leadership will probably help to a certain extent. It will take awhile though!
Another thing is that most of our dogs don't get nearly enough exercise. A tired dog is a happy dog! Walking on a leash is not sufficient exercise for most dogs. They need to run and play and move freely. That's a difficult thing to do with a dog that's not socialized too. If your dog isn't trustworthy off-leash then it's important to find a fenced area or a large indoor area where your dog can run and exercise several times a week.
For those having aggression problems, it's very difficult to assess an aggression problem over the internet. A person really needs to observe what's going on and see the precursors and the triggers so that a plan of action can be put together. There isn't a blanket fix for all aggression. You can't go wrong with leadership and using Nothing In Life Is Free principles, however. That's a good start. And then you can do some desensitization from a distance, lots of rewards for non-aggressive behavior, and gradually move in closer (over a period of days, weeks, months).
Remember that aggression almost always builds - it doesn't just happen suddenly with no signs ahead of time. You may have missed the signs, but they were there. If your dog has shown aggression (especially if it's to people) then it's your responsibility to keep your dog away from those things that cause the aggression until you can get it all figured out and the behavior changed. And you may never change the behavior - some dogs have it so firmly ingrained that you can't do much about it. In those cases, they have to be kept confined so as to keep others safe.
I wish everyone luck - and I hope that those reading about the various problems people are having will take a good look at their own dogs and think about rules, leadership, socialization and exercise.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
Thank you Melanie for posting. My Baby LEO is at it again. She has attacked me twice this week and my arms are bruised pretty badly. Battered womens league would pick up the case on the spot if I showed them my arms.... She attacks me out of frustration. On the walks, I want to go one way & she wants to go another. She starts biting on the leash. I did successfully mangage to avoid a few confrontations by giving her the sit command and treating her in the near present. But Tues. & today, things got pretty nasty. It was a long hard wrestle. She attacking me, while I try to step on her leash & hold her by the side of her mouth so the attempts to bite me would incurr pain by biting herself. I am guessing it probably is a hierachial thing, so she is fed out of my hand as of today and is ignored for most of the day. The only problem is I only manage to feed her 1/3 of her normal ration. I suppose we will be more efficient once we get used to the routine. Like any abusive husband story goes, she is an angel when she isn't in her Mr. Hyde mode. I would love to have any kind of suggestions in solving this issue.
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chris
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I would like to believe that Steel thinks Im the leader, but there are times where he does not listen. I bet his problems stem from me spoiling him.
Example:
when we sit down to eat dinner, If my husband is there.. Steel will sit or lay down nicely next to my chair. If my husband is not there, Steel will sit, facing me, "talk" to me and sometimes paw... probably because he knows daddy doesn't tollorate him doing that, but of course I will give him something.. (I make him do a behavior first) but at the same time... Im probably confusing him.. or he absolutly knows Im a push over when it comes to him.
He has passed me on the stairs before. He will listen to me better than Hubby.. but hubby is LOUDER when he yells.
hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
am I the leader or not?
Example:
when we sit down to eat dinner, If my husband is there.. Steel will sit or lay down nicely next to my chair. If my husband is not there, Steel will sit, facing me, "talk" to me and sometimes paw... probably because he knows daddy doesn't tollorate him doing that, but of course I will give him something.. (I make him do a behavior first) but at the same time... Im probably confusing him.. or he absolutly knows Im a push over when it comes to him.
He has passed me on the stairs before. He will listen to me better than Hubby.. but hubby is LOUDER when he yells.
hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
am I the leader or not?
Chris, its very easy if you want to be the leader. Take a treat then sit on the floor have Steel sit in front of you then look him in the eyes and say, Steel is it ok if I play the leader sometime, If he licks you or puts his paw on you its ok so give him the treat, If he dosn't lick you or put his paw on you that means he's not going for it so you better give him the treat anyway.
LOL! Thanks, Jeff. I now have tea all over my computer screen! 
Melanie, thank-you for the post. I read somethings that I didn't know about and do appreciate you posting. But I don't understand why you said somethings. ~not disagreeing, I'm learning.
These rules include things like going through doorways (humans go first), going up stairs (humans go first, dog NEVER passes), playing with toys (humans control all toys), getting treats (dogs must give behavior before treats), getting attention (dogs may not demand attention), getting on furniture (dominant dogs should not be on furniture), having free roam of the house (dominant dogs should have restricted access). All of these rules help establish - in a kind and calm way - that the humans are above the dogs in the hierarchy.
They do demand attention. They dance on their hind legs and even nip at my shirt if I don't give them what they feel is enough loving. That's what they are looking for when they do these things, just some hugs and petting. I really never considered it bad behavior because I felt they just want some loving when we come home. Just like anybody else, ok like almost everyone else.
I never walk out the door before them when letting them out for the first time after work or in the morning.I know I will get ran over. They have held it all day and that door spells relief! Since I've had that feeling I understand. But when we are going out regularly they wait until they are told to go. Oh` duh! when we are letting them out when we get up or come home we are asking if they have to go potty ~ could be why they are running out the door.
I give them treats just for treats. They'll be just hanging out and we'll give them treats. And they are allowed on the furnature although they only come up for a few minutes then get down. Usually it's the bed and mostly it's just to say hi, whatcha' doing, thanks for petting me, bye. The only rooms they don't have access to is my bathroom because they get the tiny white tile and white rug dirty and hairy. And my scraproom if I'm not in it. That's for their safety. I cut paper and stuff in there so there is always stuff on the floor. When I'm in there again it's just whatcha' doing? ok bye.[/i]
Melanie, thank-you for the post. I read somethings that I didn't know about and do appreciate you posting. But I don't understand why you said somethings. ~not disagreeing, I'm learning.
These rules include things like going through doorways (humans go first), going up stairs (humans go first, dog NEVER passes), playing with toys (humans control all toys), getting treats (dogs must give behavior before treats), getting attention (dogs may not demand attention), getting on furniture (dominant dogs should not be on furniture), having free roam of the house (dominant dogs should have restricted access). All of these rules help establish - in a kind and calm way - that the humans are above the dogs in the hierarchy.
They do demand attention. They dance on their hind legs and even nip at my shirt if I don't give them what they feel is enough loving. That's what they are looking for when they do these things, just some hugs and petting. I really never considered it bad behavior because I felt they just want some loving when we come home. Just like anybody else, ok like almost everyone else.
I never walk out the door before them when letting them out for the first time after work or in the morning.I know I will get ran over. They have held it all day and that door spells relief! Since I've had that feeling I understand. But when we are going out regularly they wait until they are told to go. Oh` duh! when we are letting them out when we get up or come home we are asking if they have to go potty ~ could be why they are running out the door.
I give them treats just for treats. They'll be just hanging out and we'll give them treats. And they are allowed on the furnature although they only come up for a few minutes then get down. Usually it's the bed and mostly it's just to say hi, whatcha' doing, thanks for petting me, bye. The only rooms they don't have access to is my bathroom because they get the tiny white tile and white rug dirty and hairy. And my scraproom if I'm not in it. That's for their safety. I cut paper and stuff in there so there is always stuff on the floor. When I'm in there again it's just whatcha' doing? ok bye.[/i]
Mommy to Storme, Beatle, Bailey and Mufassa aka Moose.
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IliamnasQuest
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Leo's mum -
Sounds like Leo definitely has a mind of her own. Attacking you is completely out of line and probably something you should talk to a trainer or behaviorist about. Please avoid those who want to use huge corrections on her. While a correction may be necessary, there are other things that might work well too.
Establishing your leadership through controlling everything around her is a start. She sounds like she needs to have some very tight rules put in place for now. If she were my dog, I'd be setting up ALL the rules for her. She'd have to earn every bite of food for awhile. When it came to walking, if she started throwing a fit because she wanted to go another way, I'd take a good hold on the leash, hold my hands at my stomach and march the way I wanted to go. She would come along because she'd have NO choice. Grabbing her by the face is just encouraging her to bite at you, and that's not good. If physical contact with her means she will bite and paw and scratch at you, then I'd just not touch her. Let the leash do your touching. Don't coax her, just do what you need to do and she will have to follow along.
A good obedience class may help too. Teaching her a number of behaviors that will earn her treats is great in getting her to understand the concept of following commands.
You really should have this behavior assessed by someone who can see it in action, though. What she's doing is at the point of being dangerous. I got bit not that long ago by a young chow (not quite 2 years old) who had just been spoiled and thought she had the right to boss people around. Chow jaws are VERY powerful.
Sandie - not all dogs need all rules. The more extreme cases (very dominant dogs) may need all the rules, more submissive dogs may need few if any rules. If you're not having a dominance problem then it doesn't matter as much if you follow the rules. I don't ever give my dogs positive attention if they nip at my clothes, though. That's potentially a huge problem, because if they do it to someone who doesn't understand I could have a lawsuit on my hands.
I probably have more rules than many would just because I have five dogs all living together in the house. Some of the dogs have more strict rules because they tend to push the dominance issue. My younger shepherd is a problem if I don't keep some rules for her (like she can't be on the bed). As long as I'm consistent with her, though, she is good. So for the peace of the household, she has more limits than the other dogs do.
xueshuxin - there are definitely some chows in the U.S. that are agressive but actually spoiling them is often part of the problem. There's a good way to spoil and a bad way. I consider my dogs spoiled - they get all the hugs and scratches and treats and get to run and play and have a good life, but they don't get to do "bad" things. I give them boundaries just like I would give a human child boundaries. And my three chows are sweet and wonderful.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
Sounds like Leo definitely has a mind of her own. Attacking you is completely out of line and probably something you should talk to a trainer or behaviorist about. Please avoid those who want to use huge corrections on her. While a correction may be necessary, there are other things that might work well too.
Establishing your leadership through controlling everything around her is a start. She sounds like she needs to have some very tight rules put in place for now. If she were my dog, I'd be setting up ALL the rules for her. She'd have to earn every bite of food for awhile. When it came to walking, if she started throwing a fit because she wanted to go another way, I'd take a good hold on the leash, hold my hands at my stomach and march the way I wanted to go. She would come along because she'd have NO choice. Grabbing her by the face is just encouraging her to bite at you, and that's not good. If physical contact with her means she will bite and paw and scratch at you, then I'd just not touch her. Let the leash do your touching. Don't coax her, just do what you need to do and she will have to follow along.
A good obedience class may help too. Teaching her a number of behaviors that will earn her treats is great in getting her to understand the concept of following commands.
You really should have this behavior assessed by someone who can see it in action, though. What she's doing is at the point of being dangerous. I got bit not that long ago by a young chow (not quite 2 years old) who had just been spoiled and thought she had the right to boss people around. Chow jaws are VERY powerful.
Sandie - not all dogs need all rules. The more extreme cases (very dominant dogs) may need all the rules, more submissive dogs may need few if any rules. If you're not having a dominance problem then it doesn't matter as much if you follow the rules. I don't ever give my dogs positive attention if they nip at my clothes, though. That's potentially a huge problem, because if they do it to someone who doesn't understand I could have a lawsuit on my hands.
I probably have more rules than many would just because I have five dogs all living together in the house. Some of the dogs have more strict rules because they tend to push the dominance issue. My younger shepherd is a problem if I don't keep some rules for her (like she can't be on the bed). As long as I'm consistent with her, though, she is good. So for the peace of the household, she has more limits than the other dogs do.
xueshuxin - there are definitely some chows in the U.S. that are agressive but actually spoiling them is often part of the problem. There's a good way to spoil and a bad way. I consider my dogs spoiled - they get all the hugs and scratches and treats and get to run and play and have a good life, but they don't get to do "bad" things. I give them boundaries just like I would give a human child boundaries. And my three chows are sweet and wonderful.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
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chowfrnd88
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Melanie,
Thanks for posting that!
As a lot of you know, we've had a food aggression problem developing with Special Dark. Actually, there were only two incidents, but one of them was fairly scary (Special picked up a bone outside that my husband tried to get away from him and Special reacted by biting him on the arm). Thanks to a lot of the suggestions Melanie gave on the site--in fact in this very post (and through the many pm's I've bombarbed her with!
), things have really calmed down with Special. I'm hopeful that we caught this with Special early enough and that soon we'll be able to get bones away from him again because that's a big safety concern in our neighborhood (people think they're being nice leaving out bones 
). Seeing as how Special is our first pup, we went into massive pani about what we're doing wrong (hence the zillions of pm's to poor Melanie!) and we are going to meet with a veterinary behaviorist on Tuesday. She is 100% poistive reinforcement. Part of me is afraid, because I'm usually so on the defensive about Special after the vet admitted that he is prejudiced against chows. This lady seems nice, so hopefully that won't be an issue.
I think like Melanie says, it's hard to assess these things online. For example, Special is so laid back, playful, sweet, and such a cuddle bug in every other aspect. He has no food aggression when it comes to his bowl or ice cubes or liver treats, etc. He lays on his side with us all the time, he's gentle and respectful. Essentially in our eyes, he's the perfect pup! So I'm really anxious for our appointment to arrive so we can have some more "aha" moments!
Leo's Mum, thanks for posting on your oredeal with Leo. I've been using Special's food as treats for a while now too, it did take a bit extra time to get him the usual portion of food, but don't worry, like you said you just need to get into the routine. We've also been having Special sit before he gets to out of the house, etc. I've noticed in the last few weeks that not only does all this work, but when we call his name, he looks up at us immedistaley. It's hard to explain the change that has occurred in our relationship, but he definetly listens more and is just happier. Keep us posted and good luck, I'm sorry you're going through all that.
Sandie, what I've been doing with Special is just getting between him and and the door and then facing him saying sit. If he doesn't do it, I turn away form him and ignore him. Now, usually, if he sees me touch the doorknob he sits. But I can imagine how this would be very hard to do with multiple fur-kids!!
Chris, I hear you! It's so tempting to give in to that cuteness. One of the things we have to work on is being consitent, for us it's furniture (which I know should not even be an issue at this point with Special
). But we've been told by many different people, that you either always give them scraps, always let them on furniture, etc or you neevr do. They won't undertsand why sometimes they get it and other times they don't and they'll begin to expect it. For a while, we tried to get Special to sit on the sofa with us (because he has been afraid to get on furniture since he came here), but we stopped that because we know that there will be times when he's not allowed on the couch, so instead he just cna't be on. As for the bed, taht's another story, but we have to wait until we can confidently reach into his little mouth for a chicken bone again!
Sorry for rambling everyone and thanks so, so much Melanie!!
Thanks for posting that!
As a lot of you know, we've had a food aggression problem developing with Special Dark. Actually, there were only two incidents, but one of them was fairly scary (Special picked up a bone outside that my husband tried to get away from him and Special reacted by biting him on the arm). Thanks to a lot of the suggestions Melanie gave on the site--in fact in this very post (and through the many pm's I've bombarbed her with!
), things have really calmed down with Special. I'm hopeful that we caught this with Special early enough and that soon we'll be able to get bones away from him again because that's a big safety concern in our neighborhood (people think they're being nice leaving out bones ). Seeing as how Special is our first pup, we went into massive pani about what we're doing wrong (hence the zillions of pm's to poor Melanie!) and we are going to meet with a veterinary behaviorist on Tuesday. She is 100% poistive reinforcement. Part of me is afraid, because I'm usually so on the defensive about Special after the vet admitted that he is prejudiced against chows. This lady seems nice, so hopefully that won't be an issue. I think like Melanie says, it's hard to assess these things online. For example, Special is so laid back, playful, sweet, and such a cuddle bug in every other aspect. He has no food aggression when it comes to his bowl or ice cubes or liver treats, etc. He lays on his side with us all the time, he's gentle and respectful. Essentially in our eyes, he's the perfect pup! So I'm really anxious for our appointment to arrive so we can have some more "aha" moments!
Leo's Mum, thanks for posting on your oredeal with Leo. I've been using Special's food as treats for a while now too, it did take a bit extra time to get him the usual portion of food, but don't worry, like you said you just need to get into the routine. We've also been having Special sit before he gets to out of the house, etc. I've noticed in the last few weeks that not only does all this work, but when we call his name, he looks up at us immedistaley. It's hard to explain the change that has occurred in our relationship, but he definetly listens more and is just happier. Keep us posted and good luck, I'm sorry you're going through all that.
Sandie, what I've been doing with Special is just getting between him and and the door and then facing him saying sit. If he doesn't do it, I turn away form him and ignore him. Now, usually, if he sees me touch the doorknob he sits. But I can imagine how this would be very hard to do with multiple fur-kids!!
Chris, I hear you! It's so tempting to give in to that cuteness. One of the things we have to work on is being consitent, for us it's furniture (which I know should not even be an issue at this point with Special
). But we've been told by many different people, that you either always give them scraps, always let them on furniture, etc or you neevr do. They won't undertsand why sometimes they get it and other times they don't and they'll begin to expect it. For a while, we tried to get Special to sit on the sofa with us (because he has been afraid to get on furniture since he came here), but we stopped that because we know that there will be times when he's not allowed on the couch, so instead he just cna't be on. As for the bed, taht's another story, but we have to wait until we can confidently reach into his little mouth for a chicken bone again!Sorry for rambling everyone and thanks so, so much Melanie!!
LEO's mum wrote: "I would love to have any kind of suggestions in solving this issue."
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In your previous thread on the same behavioral issue, we discussed the frustration aspect of Leo being sometimes blocked from using the dog water fountain while on your long hikes; the salt content of the treats you were using; the importance of increasing water; and the importance of not wrestling with her, since this increases stress and dehydration. (You can't have a conversation with stress hormones anyway, because they don't think. They just react as survival instinct).
I don't know whether you're still hiking in this weather, but Chows can quickly get dehydrated and heat stressed even in cooler weather, and that alone can increase stress and even contribute to aggression. You've mentioned that the behavior is like a personality change. IIRC, the fountain area is where and when this behavioral problem started (?)
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In your previous thread on the same behavioral issue, we discussed the frustration aspect of Leo being sometimes blocked from using the dog water fountain while on your long hikes; the salt content of the treats you were using; the importance of increasing water; and the importance of not wrestling with her, since this increases stress and dehydration. (You can't have a conversation with stress hormones anyway, because they don't think. They just react as survival instinct).
I don't know whether you're still hiking in this weather, but Chows can quickly get dehydrated and heat stressed even in cooler weather, and that alone can increase stress and even contribute to aggression. You've mentioned that the behavior is like a personality change. IIRC, the fountain area is where and when this behavioral problem started (?)
Thank you eveyone for your concerns. I think I will try to dig up the behavioural specialist's name card which was recommended by my vet when I told her LEO play bites at the tender age of 15wks. The trainer at the puppy class, who is an aggressive dog specialist herself have told me she has heard good things about her. So, cost aside, she will be my first port of call, I think.
As for why I have to grab LEO by the side of her mouth, because if I didn't she could attack me anywhere! At least I can limit the damage to my hands & arms that way. I am not the one initiating body contact, so to speak. Turning my back and pulling her on the leash, I am afraid would be too dangerous for my back side and my legs.
I think this is "frustration intorance" on her part and not a stress issue. The weather in SF is nice and cool esp in July & August, starting at high 50s or low 60s in the morning going up to mid-70s only if we are lucky in the afternoon. Yes, Lucus Studios tend to be the incident area often but not always, just because we walk through it just about every day. The walk is not too long, I even try to stop by at a tennis court which is enclosed and let her run around(as she can't be trusted off leash elsewhere) if it is not in use by tennis people. We only tend to go on longer walks on WEs, along w/ hubby. Today we did a trail in Marin, about 3miles or 5k. The weather wasn't hot, she was not dragged, she had plenty of water to drink. All in all, tired maybe but not too stressed, I think.
It's getting to the stage that I feel I don't want to take her out on my own. Should I get mail gloves like the ones used by oyster shackers? or a sturdy leather glove ?
My hubby just came back from his rollerblading stroll. I think we'll take LEO out together for the evening walk.
Chow 4 now, Tired LEO & Tired-er mum
As for why I have to grab LEO by the side of her mouth, because if I didn't she could attack me anywhere! At least I can limit the damage to my hands & arms that way. I am not the one initiating body contact, so to speak. Turning my back and pulling her on the leash, I am afraid would be too dangerous for my back side and my legs.
I think this is "frustration intorance" on her part and not a stress issue. The weather in SF is nice and cool esp in July & August, starting at high 50s or low 60s in the morning going up to mid-70s only if we are lucky in the afternoon. Yes, Lucus Studios tend to be the incident area often but not always, just because we walk through it just about every day. The walk is not too long, I even try to stop by at a tennis court which is enclosed and let her run around(as she can't be trusted off leash elsewhere) if it is not in use by tennis people. We only tend to go on longer walks on WEs, along w/ hubby. Today we did a trail in Marin, about 3miles or 5k. The weather wasn't hot, she was not dragged, she had plenty of water to drink. All in all, tired maybe but not too stressed, I think.
It's getting to the stage that I feel I don't want to take her out on my own. Should I get mail gloves like the ones used by oyster shackers? or a sturdy leather glove ?
My hubby just came back from his rollerblading stroll. I think we'll take LEO out together for the evening walk.
Chow 4 now, Tired LEO & Tired-er mum
Is Leo attacking you in play or serious, I've never heard of a Chow or any dog attacking its owner unless there was something really wrong. agression to another person or dog thats one thing but agression to its owner, I may be wrong but attacking an owner goes way beyond obedience training, Pekoe is the worst of the worst, big time attitude and spoiled she does what she wants when she wants but she would die before she ever attacked or bit me for any reason. Pekoe has been hot and thirsty but I never let her drink out of a public dog bowl or water fountain plus she would rather go thirsty then drink out of anything but her own bowl no matter how thirsty she is. If the biting and attacking is play then that's a different story that is Obedience. Obedience and training two words I guess I will never understand. If you can raise a kid then you can raise a Chow.
Ah, Jeff, but I have never raised a child! I think it is kind of spoiled brat syndrome. Cannot or does not control the frustration. I have been on the receiving end, which is way better than having her attack someone else. I had two chows growing up, and the female was a bit like that. If she saw a cat she would go nuts. The boy was much more resereved. Then she would vent her frustration on the baby boy chow. They got into fights altho nothing too serious, I have two scars from breaking them up. They have no intention to bite humans but even a even a pressed tooth would break ones flesh. I fainted both times. I am not v good w/ pain. Now, I have bruises but not a real wound. I haven't fainted. I am not making excuses. I think I've been lucky. But in the back of my head, I know if she really meant it it could be much worse. I am hoping we would be able to stop this behaviour before I find out what she is really capable of.
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chris
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Off subject.. sorry..but.. Ha.. I faint at the sight of blood too.. BUT only my own.. Wierd.. I can handel other peoples blood, just not my own.. 
on subject..
Seem Steel gowled at Hubby last night. He was MAD. Mike said he was trying to get Steel to go outside, and evidently he didn't want to.. After Steel growled and bit the air, Mike booted him out the door with his foot.
Do I have a growing problem here?
on subject..
Seem Steel gowled at Hubby last night. He was MAD. Mike said he was trying to get Steel to go outside, and evidently he didn't want to.. After Steel growled and bit the air, Mike booted him out the door with his foot.
Do I have a growing problem here?
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IliamnasQuest
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Leo's mum - I definitely think you need to call the behaviorist and get someone to see the behavior and to help you set up a plan of attack (so to speak). If she's willing to actively go after you, then you need some help that is really hard to give over the internet. It may be that she's just acting spoiled, or there may be more to it. Either way, having someone qualified who can watch what's going on and then give you the tools to help fix the problem is the best idea.
Chris - a growl is a warning usually .. if Steel feels he has the right to growl, then it's very likely you have a budding problem. It's a sign that he's not seeing the humans as the "alphas" and that can get pretty sticky if not dealt with. Chows can be very dominant (not uncommon at all) and keeping a strong leadership is important.
As far as raising dogs like you raise kids - I do believe that it's very similar. I don't have any 2-legged kids, but I've worked extensively with youth of various ages. I taught at a pre-school for years (3-5 year olds), taught in the school district for years (K- 8th), was a 4-H leader (horse and dog groups both), and have taught private music lessons for many years now. My views on raising kids and dogs is that you should shower them with love, give them special things and show them how important they are in your life - but at the same time, provide boundaries and consistent consequences if they push against those boundaries. They should have to earn some things that aren't just given to them, because the earning helps develop a sense of responsibility. They should have times of pure play but also have some times where they work too, just because working is good for them. And just like each child is an individual, each dog is too. Interactions, boundaries, rules, free time - all should be adjusted to fit the needs and temperaments of each individual dog. Like I said before, some dogs need a lot of rules and some need few. Kids are much the same way.
I'm no expert on raising kids but I do have quite a bit of experience with dogs. It sure works for me - I don't have any problems with aggression in any of mine. I had a bit of problem with Dora, especially right after I got her (she was 14 months old). I had some troubles when Tori reached about 16 months old and wanted to challenge Trick. I raised the rules and set firmer boundaries for each dog when the problems happened and it all cleared up. And I've had many clients that fixed the problems with their dogs through adjusting the rules and boundaries within their households.
There's absolutely no reason why chows shouldn't be just as nicely behaved as any other breed. Yes, they're independent and stubborn and have a mind of their own. But unless they just plain have a screw loose (on rare occasion one does), they act aggressive because humans have allowed that attitude to develop. With proper adjustment of the leadership, that can generally be changed. It doesn't have to be harsh (I don't advocate beating your dog) but it does have to be FIRM and CONSISTENT on the part of the human. And the humans have to be committed to the change. It can take awhile but it's well worth it.
I need to quit posting in the middle of the night .. *L*
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
Chris - a growl is a warning usually .. if Steel feels he has the right to growl, then it's very likely you have a budding problem. It's a sign that he's not seeing the humans as the "alphas" and that can get pretty sticky if not dealt with. Chows can be very dominant (not uncommon at all) and keeping a strong leadership is important.
As far as raising dogs like you raise kids - I do believe that it's very similar. I don't have any 2-legged kids, but I've worked extensively with youth of various ages. I taught at a pre-school for years (3-5 year olds), taught in the school district for years (K- 8th), was a 4-H leader (horse and dog groups both), and have taught private music lessons for many years now. My views on raising kids and dogs is that you should shower them with love, give them special things and show them how important they are in your life - but at the same time, provide boundaries and consistent consequences if they push against those boundaries. They should have to earn some things that aren't just given to them, because the earning helps develop a sense of responsibility. They should have times of pure play but also have some times where they work too, just because working is good for them. And just like each child is an individual, each dog is too. Interactions, boundaries, rules, free time - all should be adjusted to fit the needs and temperaments of each individual dog. Like I said before, some dogs need a lot of rules and some need few. Kids are much the same way.
I'm no expert on raising kids but I do have quite a bit of experience with dogs. It sure works for me - I don't have any problems with aggression in any of mine. I had a bit of problem with Dora, especially right after I got her (she was 14 months old). I had some troubles when Tori reached about 16 months old and wanted to challenge Trick. I raised the rules and set firmer boundaries for each dog when the problems happened and it all cleared up. And I've had many clients that fixed the problems with their dogs through adjusting the rules and boundaries within their households.
There's absolutely no reason why chows shouldn't be just as nicely behaved as any other breed. Yes, they're independent and stubborn and have a mind of their own. But unless they just plain have a screw loose (on rare occasion one does), they act aggressive because humans have allowed that attitude to develop. With proper adjustment of the leadership, that can generally be changed. It doesn't have to be harsh (I don't advocate beating your dog) but it does have to be FIRM and CONSISTENT on the part of the human. And the humans have to be committed to the change. It can take awhile but it's well worth it.
I need to quit posting in the middle of the night .. *L*
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
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chris
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ps.. I have to say...
My Griz and Steel have alot of the same personality. Griz was a very very sweet girl, however choosey about people. We really wouldn't let people pet her to much. You would really have to warm up to her to get her to trust you. (story.. a friend of ours brought over dog biskets every time he came over, and after a while.. he was Grizz's best friend.... but not at first.)
She also, when felt like she was being attacked of course, has fought with my husband. when she did something bad, hubby would go for her to punish her (he is into the old ways) and she had growled and bared teeth at him. BUT only, when she was believeing she was loosing and was backed into a corner. She never ever broke the skin.. as far as I can remember....
Mike.. likes but doesn't like Steel. Steel is my dog. I bought him and brought him home. Mike sees him as a pain in the butt. Yet.. will say hi and pet him and sometimes play with him. So, when Steel is showing his "agression" Mike threatens to "beat the crap" out of him. (I won't let that happen.. trust me) but it worries me because he may make me get rid of him.. at which point.. I WON'T.. and he knows I won't. What Mike wants is our THOR back.. He just doesn't remember what THOR was like when he was a puppy. Thor was VERY HYPER...
In any event.. I must do these things that have been suggested because I just don't want to go down that road
My Griz and Steel have alot of the same personality. Griz was a very very sweet girl, however choosey about people. We really wouldn't let people pet her to much. You would really have to warm up to her to get her to trust you. (story.. a friend of ours brought over dog biskets every time he came over, and after a while.. he was Grizz's best friend.... but not at first.)
She also, when felt like she was being attacked of course, has fought with my husband. when she did something bad, hubby would go for her to punish her (he is into the old ways) and she had growled and bared teeth at him. BUT only, when she was believeing she was loosing and was backed into a corner. She never ever broke the skin.. as far as I can remember....
Mike.. likes but doesn't like Steel. Steel is my dog. I bought him and brought him home. Mike sees him as a pain in the butt. Yet.. will say hi and pet him and sometimes play with him. So, when Steel is showing his "agression" Mike threatens to "beat the crap" out of him. (I won't let that happen.. trust me) but it worries me because he may make me get rid of him.. at which point.. I WON'T.. and he knows I won't. What Mike wants is our THOR back.. He just doesn't remember what THOR was like when he was a puppy. Thor was VERY HYPER...
In any event.. I must do these things that have been suggested because I just don't want to go down that road
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chowfrnd88
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Chris, I think Steel having his "operation" will make him calmer a bit, but you may not really notice much of a difference. With Special, he became more laid back over time, but he was easy going to begin with. However, our treat aggression issue started well after his neutering. We used to able to reach right on in his little mouth and yank out anything without even so much as a protest, so with what we've learned from Melanie and others I've talked to, for us it's an issue of Special maturing, he's testing boundaries coupled with somethings we've been doing. By we I really mean me! But then again, it's so clear that my husband is alpha in our household and Special tends to have a faster response time to him than me, so it's odd that Special Dark would bite him.
We used to able to reach right on in his little mouth and yank out anything without even so much as a protest, so with what we've learned from Melanie and others I've talked to, for us it's an issue of Special maturing, he's testing boundaries coupled with somethings we've been doing. By we I really mean me! But then again, it's so clear that my husband is alpha in our household and Special tends to have a faster response time to him than me, so it's odd that Special Dark would bite him.
Chris
Tell Mike to keep kicking Steel and he'll wish Steel would growl! What will happen is Steel will just bite w/o warning if he gets kicked, shoved, nugded, or whatever you want to call it. If Steel gets to that point, you will have serious problems. You'll either be letting him have his way more and more or you'll be getting bit a few times until you can straighten things out. Just remember chows have an extremely long memory. If Steel thinks Mike is a problem he always be wary of him.
Tell Mike to keep kicking Steel and he'll wish Steel would growl! What will happen is Steel will just bite w/o warning if he gets kicked, shoved, nugded, or whatever you want to call it. If Steel gets to that point, you will have serious problems. You'll either be letting him have his way more and more or you'll be getting bit a few times until you can straighten things out. Just remember chows have an extremely long memory. If Steel thinks Mike is a problem he always be wary of him.
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chris
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yeah, by the time we had Thor fixed... he was probably already 5+ years old... so we didn't see much of a behavior change. He was already a bit calmer than he was.
Grizz responded to Mike more than me.. Thor responded to both of us. Steel, responds more to me than Mike. (which probably ticks Mike off even more)
sixchows: I completely agree with you. When Mike was on the phone with me and told me he had booted Steel out the door, I know what he did, and I was Pi$$ed. Mike knows better than to do something like that in front of me, because I will defend Steel. When Steel is being a bad boy, he gets in trouble.. trust me.. but I am NOT physical with him.. er well I take that back.. I have swatted his behind before, like I have my non fur kids. But you know what I am getting at. So.. in essence.. Steel is not seeing Mike as the "alpha" but as a threat???? is that whats happening here?
Grizz responded to Mike more than me.. Thor responded to both of us. Steel, responds more to me than Mike. (which probably ticks Mike off even more)
sixchows: I completely agree with you. When Mike was on the phone with me and told me he had booted Steel out the door, I know what he did, and I was Pi$$ed. Mike knows better than to do something like that in front of me, because I will defend Steel. When Steel is being a bad boy, he gets in trouble.. trust me.. but I am NOT physical with him.. er well I take that back.. I have swatted his behind before, like I have my non fur kids. But you know what I am getting at. So.. in essence.. Steel is not seeing Mike as the "alpha" but as a threat???? is that whats happening here?
LEO's mum wrote: "I think this is "frustration intorance" on her part and not a stress issue."
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But frustration intolerance *is* a stress issue, and it's also a marker of endocrine chemistry imbalances. That's the point I've been trying to make, because the imbalance can indeed appear as 'Jekell and Hyde' mood swings, aggressive and violent surges.
Re: "All in all, tired maybe but not too stressed, I think."
Exercise is a stressor to the adrenals, as are excess salt and refined sugars. Dogs have a harder time getting rid of excess salt, and some dogs inherit hormonal problems affecting electrolytes. It's just another facet of 'frustration intolerance' for you to consider.
Best wishes.
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But frustration intolerance *is* a stress issue, and it's also a marker of endocrine chemistry imbalances. That's the point I've been trying to make, because the imbalance can indeed appear as 'Jekell and Hyde' mood swings, aggressive and violent surges.
Re: "All in all, tired maybe but not too stressed, I think."
Exercise is a stressor to the adrenals, as are excess salt and refined sugars. Dogs have a harder time getting rid of excess salt, and some dogs inherit hormonal problems affecting electrolytes. It's just another facet of 'frustration intolerance' for you to consider.
Best wishes.
Chris, Just repeating what sixchows just said, If your husband is kicking Steel and doesn't like him your going to have some real problems between the two of them and fixing Steel isn't going to help. As close as Pekoe and I are about a year ago Pekoe was eating something on the ground I told her don't eat that but she wouldn't stop so I walked over and just moved her away with my foot, I didn't kick her but just moved her, Pekoe took it as a kick and wouldn't come near me for a week she hid in the shower at night and tried to run away every time we went for a walk, anytime I went near her she would hide in a corner if she was in the back yard and I walked out she would hide behind a bush, she wouldn't come anywhere near me for a week. If it were anyone else besides me Pekoe would have been attacking and biting. I think Judy had a similar situation at one time. Chows don't forget anything and Steel can since your Husband doesn't like him I can understand why Steel is growling at him and its going to get worse unless you take your husband in for obedience training or have him fixed, Steel isn't the problem, your husband is the problem and your going to have a real problem if this keeps up to the point of one of them having to leave.
I never mentioned it but about a year ago I had to make that decision, My wife or Pekoe not from any type of abuse my wife loved Pekoe but some other problems, Yeah right like there was a decision to be made I just took Pekoe packed up and went on our marry way. I always said Pekoe would come first no matter what. I have the perfect marriage now, I see my wife maybe 2 days every few months.
I never mentioned it but about a year ago I had to make that decision, My wife or Pekoe not from any type of abuse my wife loved Pekoe but some other problems, Yeah right like there was a decision to be made I just took Pekoe packed up and went on our marry way. I always said Pekoe would come first no matter what. I have the perfect marriage now, I see my wife maybe 2 days every few months.
Last edited by Jeff&Peks on Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:14 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Victory
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chris wrote: So.. in essence.. Steel is not seeing Mike as the "alpha" but as a threat???? is that whats happening here?
I'm not sixchows but Yes,Steel very well may be seeing Mike as a threat and is responding accordingly and neutering him won't change that.
Mike's behavior is the one thing chows can't deal with; inconsistent. Melanine, and several others of us and myself as well, have said over and over again that the one key to having a well behaved chow is consistency. Firmness yes, but it must be consistent.
Also many, many Chows, in particular the males, will not put up with aggressive physical punishment.
The fact that Mike sometimes plays with him and then reacts to disobeidence physically and aggressively is sending mixed signals to Steel, mixed signals equal untrustworthiness and in Steel's mind, (and most other independent breeds of dogs) what is untrustworthy is a threat.
Please have a long talk with Mike and see if you can get him to understand that his behavior is only making Steel worse and it would be a real tragedy if Steel becomes even more aggressive because he feels he needs to protect himself from Mike. Steel could get to the point where he feels he has to protect himself from all men and then you'll have a real problem.
Victory, Darkwind, (our angel), Firesong, and Dreamdancer
Thank you SweetPea!
Thank you SweetPea!
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Judy Fox
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Yes, I did have an issue with Milly.
To cut a long story short, we were working in the front garden to take up the hedge, relocate paving stones and build and erect a fence and gate so that Milly and Mabel could run round into the front garden as they wished.
We have a side gate and all the time we were working in the front, which was a good three or four weeks, Milly and Mabel were confined in the back garden. Mabel took it very well and just went to bed and sulked but Milly was very annoyed.
Anyway, as we were finishing setting in some kerb stones, and the fence and gate were not erected so the front was quite open, I wanted to go back into the back garden. I was carrying two of the kerb stones that were surplus. Usually, when I say "Excuse me Milly, (or Mabel or girls)" they will move out of my way and stand by for me to pass.
On that occasion, as I pushed the side gate open, Milly made a dash for it instead of her usual polite behaviour. I made a grab for her to stop her getting out, at the same time not wanting to drop the kerb stones on her, or me for that matter. I was obviously clumsy and she screamed and bit my arm and my hand.
She was obviously in pain and I was devastated - I thought I had hurt her. We took her to the vet there and then and he said that I had not hurt her as such, but had hurt a hurt. She had a stiff shoulder. With us being so busy trying to beat the oncoming winter weather, we had not noticed. The vet asked had she knocked herself or been injured and at that point I remembered that Isabelle had visited about a week earlier with Hector and he had run at her in the garden and knocked her. We had admonished him but thought no more of it.
But it does go to show that in exceptional circumstances, a dog will bight.
Milly was mortified, but she kept clear of me for a while and Fred dealt with her. She is ok now and still loves me but she must have been confused as I had never hurt her before.
To cut a long story short, we were working in the front garden to take up the hedge, relocate paving stones and build and erect a fence and gate so that Milly and Mabel could run round into the front garden as they wished.
We have a side gate and all the time we were working in the front, which was a good three or four weeks, Milly and Mabel were confined in the back garden. Mabel took it very well and just went to bed and sulked but Milly was very annoyed.
Anyway, as we were finishing setting in some kerb stones, and the fence and gate were not erected so the front was quite open, I wanted to go back into the back garden. I was carrying two of the kerb stones that were surplus. Usually, when I say "Excuse me Milly, (or Mabel or girls)" they will move out of my way and stand by for me to pass.
On that occasion, as I pushed the side gate open, Milly made a dash for it instead of her usual polite behaviour. I made a grab for her to stop her getting out, at the same time not wanting to drop the kerb stones on her, or me for that matter. I was obviously clumsy and she screamed and bit my arm and my hand.
She was obviously in pain and I was devastated - I thought I had hurt her. We took her to the vet there and then and he said that I had not hurt her as such, but had hurt a hurt. She had a stiff shoulder. With us being so busy trying to beat the oncoming winter weather, we had not noticed. The vet asked had she knocked herself or been injured and at that point I remembered that Isabelle had visited about a week earlier with Hector and he had run at her in the garden and knocked her. We had admonished him but thought no more of it.
But it does go to show that in exceptional circumstances, a dog will bight.
Milly was mortified, but she kept clear of me for a while and Fred dealt with her. She is ok now and still loves me but she must have been confused as I had never hurt her before.
(Thank you Sweetpea for my new banner.)