Vicious Fighting

[Aloha]

My two female chows began fighting yesterday while I was at work. A friend called me. I came home to bloody fur and wounds. Two hours at the vet and $400 later we came home with shaved wounds, antibiotics and pain killers. I had a friend stay with them today, they were separated half the day. Tonight they got into another vicious fight. I took all my strength to separate their death grips on each other (especially worrisome since part of their necks are shaved).

My oldest Honey is 4, Roxie is 20 months, I've had her since she was 8 weeks old so she grew up with her 'older sister'. Roxie is the alpha, she's very bossy and always wedges herself between Honey and anyone giving her attention. Honey is very docile usually.

I appreciate any advice you can share to stop the fighting - or can it be stopped? Keeping them separated for the next 12 years isn't a solution. I have had female chows before but have NEVER had this occur.

Thank you!

[MissV]

ooh!!! i wish I could give you advice!!!! I dont actually have any!
so bizzare that now at 20 months the fighting has begun.
I would recommend getting a dog therapist in to assess both dogs - something is def amiss in their pack-order.

Good luck to you friend and I'm seriously holding thumbs for you!

[sweetpea]

18 to 20 months is about the age my two females first got into a vicious fight. They had to be kept apart for around a week because the youngest was bound and determined to pick up where she left off any chance she could get. Thought we had things under control and it happened again with another several days to a week of having to keep them apart. We had quite a time with her during this time. I had to really toughen up with them during that time, especially the youngest since she was the one with the teenage attitude. It was full NILF with them. I hated having to be so strict but I couldn't have them fighting each other over who the dominant one was either. They are now 7 and 8 years old, best friends with an occasional disagreement or fight. We know what to watch for now and can normally stop a fight before it happens. Now first sign of aggression and its timeout for them.

[myboys]

Ok...I think I can be of some help here. I have (2) male chows. They are now 3 yrs old. Boy...that first year was a tough one. Vicious fights and off to the vet we went. I did everything I thought was right: throwing a blanket over them (to get them out of that ZONE), spraying water on them, etc etc.
After the second bad fight, I called in a dog therapist (whisperer) whatever and she was AMAZING! She explained, after watching them and asking us questions for about one and a half hours that we had (2) alpha dogs and that was the issue. They both wanted to be the boss of the pack! Through her observations, she determined who was the true alpha and who was the wannabee. Then she proceeded to give me tips/ideas on what I needed to do (right away)!!
I had to treat my alpha dog as "the alpha dog".....he got his food first, he got his treat first, he was allowed to walk in the house before his brother, etc etc. He was ALPHA. I know it sounds cruel, but it worked. Butch now defers to Sundance. He doesn't always like it but he does it. After her visit, there was one more fight. We were visiting a campground with friends (out of state)....the dogs were with us and they were not familiar with anything. Therefore, they weren't eating regulary or on there regular routine. It all started over food that was dropped under a table. Let me tell you....that table lifted right off the ground and we had grown adults who were scared out of there wits at what they witnessed!! I could have cried. We were able to finally separate them and took them back to the place we were staying and kept them separated for the rest of the day/night. It'll be two years this July since that happened. Good luck. Jean

[Cam Atis]

Myboys is right. These fights which your doggies always do will be a regular thing if the pack order is not yet established. One of your dog keeps on challenging the other's position and the one keeps on proving the other he is Alpha.
Being an ordinary dog owner, you may look for tell tale signs that myboys' dog therapist pointed out to him or her, who is the real alpha. When they fight, let them be, observe and see who is the one on top most of the time and the last growl and on top the last. That dog is the alpha. Now you greet that alpha first, then the second in line, you give food first very much as Myboys' dog therapist told him.
You will aggravate the situation if you greet , feed , pet first the second dog. This will encourage him to challenge the alpha.

[Aloha]

THANK YOU everyone for your replies, it’s been an awful 48 hours.

Sweetpea, myboys and Cam Atis, I cannot thank you enough for your experiences and advice. I was in dire need of encouragement; the future was looking very bleak. I spoke to my vet yesterday about a behaviorist referral, will make an appointment tomorrow and keep my girls separated until then. I have been using MY alpha voice with them. They’re exhausted; not sure if it’s the trauma, the medication, the pain, the shame or a combination.

I’ve always tried to treat Honey Bear as the alpha, greeting her first, but had not let her in the door or fed her first. Thank you for the excellent tips.
I will update you as soon as I have more to report. Thank you again from the bottom of my heart. Suzanne

[Aloha]

Update: The girls had another fight and trip to the vet on Saturday . They were both outside with me about 5 feet away.... I didn't see it happen, but I imagine Honey was probably walking in my direction and Roxie tried to stop her. I blasted them with water until they let go. They have been separated since then.

I've been using NILF since it was recommended in your reply. I didn't know what the acronym meant but thanks to this website and Google, I was able to get a good understanding. I also found information on line that described Roxie's dominant behavior; putting her head on Honey's shoulders, herding her away from anyone giving her attention and in the last two weeks, trying to mount her twice (that we saw). Sweetpea, it sounds very much like the teen aged attitude you described, albeit dangerous.

The behaviorist came to our house today and spent two hours with us. We walked them for about 25 minutes. He rigged their harness leashes so they had loops around their necks. He gave me a lot of insight into cues and the importance of my body language. No more baby names and happy voices, at least for the near term. No more free feeding. We now have meal times. No more stepping around the dogs, they must get up when I walk through a room. Roxie isn't allowed to sit on my feet anymore. Whilst I found it endearing, the behaviorist said it's territorial behavior. No more jumping on favorite visitors. I've never allowed it, we've tried commands, turning our backs and raising a knee, all to no avail. Now there's no company until all four feet are on the ground. Again, I was told that was dominance.

We also need to walk the girls three times a day to get them (Roxie) tired. If I think of anything else, I'll update this reply.

The behaviorist will be back in a two weeks, I'll let you know our progress, his comments/tips.

I thank everyone again for your experience and support. Your stories were extremely encouraging during a bleak week. Suzanne

[Sirchow]

It sounds like you have found a wonderful behaviourist and I am so glad you found one as we had one out to our house to help with our spaniel and she was useless....I hope that your next post will be an encouarging one. This will have to be your way of life from now on but it will become a habbit and not such hard work....good luck and fingers and paws crossed here for you and the girls.

[Sarahloo]

This is really unhelpful, but I've read that once two Chow ladies have fought, they are sworn enemies forever and it would be better to give one of them up. Unlike males, who are likely to forget, the females are capable of holding a grudge forever. I hope that's not true, but I've had it on good authority of experienced Chow owners.
It's good that you are trying very hard, but if there's continued bloodshed, maybe your friend would be interested in adopting one of them.

[Aloha]

I realize it's a long shot to modify Roxie's behavior. She is a beautiful, smart, young dog but I am very concerned about Honey, who is extremely low key. I don't want either of them hurt again, it just kills me to see their wounds. They are my 4th and 5th female Chows and I have NEVER experienced this behavior, it's crushing. I know rehoming may be in our future because I can't stand the thought of either of them being hurt, or worse, killed in a fight.

[Sarahloo]

Would putting muzzles on both of them make it easier to deal with them? The big wire basket ones
http://www.google.de/imgres?hl=de&sa=X& ... s:21,i:118
seem decently comfortable. Maybe it would help if they realized that biting was simply no longer an option. Your situation is definitely serious enough for this measure and they would get used to them in no time.

[Cam Atis]

Sound advice. These two will become friends and until then they have to talk it over without resorting to dog fight.

[Ursa's daddy]

I think Sarahloo has a good idea. At least it would eliminate the problem of bite injuries. Two females, or two males can be a handful. We had issues with Ursa and our two terriers. All of them are female, and Ursa is several times larger and is the alpha, so when she would give the others warning bites, it became a medical issue. When she would go at it with Malachi, my male chow, it was a different issue. He is much larger, and biting his mane just left loose fur around; no serious damage. Over time, Ursa has mellowed and realized the little dogs are mostly noise and not a threat to her. She can huff at them and that covers it. Maggie, our rat terrier will challenge Malachi, and he just raises his head, leaving her with nothing to bite. I think over time they will work it out, but in the short run, without muzzles or physical separation, they can do some damage.

[kitten1426]

We have 4 dogs One female Chow who is Alpha...we keep her that way, and 3 males....She is fixed and so is the Male chow fixed..Our collie male isnt and Our Male Airedale isnt...The 2 that fight all the time are the Male collie and Male chow...its usually over food...The weird thing is the Airedale can do whatever he wants to any of them take there toy...food..our attention etc...etc...no one challenges him Well Mia our female Chow does but he doesnt see to care....LOL...Its just the Collie and our Male Chow who fight...we one time let them fight it out they dont seem to bite thats weird more who is getting on top of each other growling snaping but never hurt each other...We chalk it up as they are fighting in pack to see where they fit...Im guessing thats what it is...And the Chow always seems to calm down 1st and stops...we dont let it go long we just try to get them to work it out,we would never LET them hurt each other if we see any teeth we seperate them instantly!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Cam Atis]

Maggie, our rat terrier will challenge Malachi, and he just raises his head, leaving her with nothing to bite.

Just remembered how Bruiser (9" Toy Fox Terrier) would challenge my 27" Male and intact dalmatian whose name is Duke. Bruiser is older than Duke.
Duke would normally go about his business walking past him without paying much attention to Bruiser as he can't reach him anyway. But if Duke as much as put his head down, Bruiser would be at it asap.
One day was a day I could not forget as it is D' DAY that Duke got pissed with Blue that he did a quick one. Next thing we saw was Duke had pinned Bruiser to the ground by putting his two front paw on top of the little Toy Fox Terrier. After that incident, Bruiser IGNORED Duke for a few days before regaining his bravado and started again but on a more toned down barking. and he was wise not to get too near the dalmatian ever.

[Auddymay]

I don't want to darken your day, but this is why many experts suggest not pairing females. Sometimes they do grudge fight, and some have been even known to fight to the death. My female Lily has fought every now and then with her female siblings, but can be separated verbally. I have recently found that the dowager empress will also light into her new big little brother, but again, no separation issues. Never leave these two together alone. Hopefully you will be able to work this through.

[cherriemater]

I am terrified at reading this forum topic. Leo and Max are still intact (at eight months) and mouth ALL the time (we call it chomp chomp because one or the other will be perfectly quiet, walk up to the other and start "chomping" on an ear, leg, arm, etc.). They only every bark at one another when they're eating and this will be resolved with a new feeder like the other one (Leo can't make up his mind which bowl he will eat out of while Max is happy to eat from the LeBistro Feeder. Time to get another or put them on opposite sides of the room.

We have learned to pick up plates once a treat has been given so that fighting was nipped in the bud quite early, however, the play so roughly lately. It will be VERY difficult to figure out which is the true Alpha because the chomping and mounting goes either way, although the mounting (THANK GOD!) has stopped almost altogether. I have stuck my hand in both of their mouths to "test" the pressure and there isn't any until, randomly, they start pulling. Then it's either OFF or Nice, nice and they quit.

Is this the teenager in them or could it possibly get worse?? Any thoughts anyone? ((My apologies, Suzanne, I don't mean to hijack your post ... but it seemed relevant.))

[Sarahloo]

Marti, your boys love each other so much, I don't ever see that changing!

[cherriemater]

That is true, Sarah! Max has decided that he doesn't want to jump up into the truck when Joe goes "for a ride" or when I do, so he stays behind, sitting patiently in the garage until Leo comes bursting through the door. They also, generally, sleep near each other and even when Leo jumps up on the bed for a bit, inevitably they will both be butt to head lined up on my side of the bed. I love so much the way they lie at the sliding glass door together or how they might be in different rooms but seek the other out and either lick each others face or chomp on an ear. Oh yes, they love each other so I suppose I am overreacting ... again. But you know me, the worried Momma. I should be glad that they only occasionally fight over food dishes, and not too aggressively. Just a warning bark or two.

[bellachow]

Cherriemater, I dont forsee any problems with your 2 since they were born & raised together. When that happens they tend to have already worked out that alpha thing as they were growing up. You know from watching them if one is always 1st to do everything (greet you, go out doors, feed,etc). If there is never a first then congratulations YOU are the alpha.

Aloaha, dont get too discuraged cause all chows are different. Its normal pack behavior if you have an older chow to have the younger one try to assume the alpha role and it has nothing to do with the *Censored Word* of the dogs. I have an older female & brought in a male puppy. The male occaisionally will try to show he is dominant because he is younger & bigger...until my little girl shows him that he may be all that but she is still the boss, lol. You are taking all the right steps, I am sure everything will work out.

[Ursa's daddy]

Aloaha, I think that females tend to have more issues than males, but that is just opinion. Ursa, female chow & alpha, made it clear that she was going to dominate the other dogs. The two female terriers did not see it, but they lack the physical size, and we initially had some problems. The girls have at least sorted it out enough that Ursa doesn't bite the two smaller dogs, and the terriers occasionally have a little dust up. Malachi will tolerate Ursa being alpha, and if she oversteps her bounds, he is physically bigger and won't be abused.
Cherrimater, I had two intact males, a GSD collie mix @ 120 pounds and an Aussie @65 pounds. Occasionally, Chip (Aussie) would decide that he wanted to eat from Doones' bowl. That would lead to some bloody ears and an Aussie not eating his supper. We used two separate bowls with distance, but, if Chip thought he go to the other bowl, it was a fight. Looking back, I probably should have had the dogs neutered, but I was in my twenties and didn't know much. Considering the personalities of both dogs, I don't know if neutering would have made a difference.

[Auddymay]

Bllachow wrote: "...it has nothing to do with the *Censored Word* of the dogs."

All respect accorded, this simply is not true. There have been many cases of female on female aggression, and you take a chance when you pair females. Many of us have and had no problems, but there are also cases where there have been real unsolvable problems. The breeder I got Lily from had one female kill another. I am not trying to scare this lady, but I don't want her to think this is going to be an easy fix, either. I'm certain she is already aware how serious this is.

Cherie, males generally don't have this problem. Being intact can cause some issues, but the females are the ones most likely to throw down.

[Cam Atis]

Oh! I'll keep a mental note on that Auddymay. And perhaps I will stay away from it as you see, I prefer keeping females. I abhor male's marking habits and the odor that only male/dogs emit in their marked up territories. I dont alter all my dogs so I usually keep same *Censored Word* to prevent unintentional breeding.

[Auddymay]

Cam, I keep females myself as a general rule. I understand that every time I do, I'm rolling the dice. When I decided to get a foster Chow, Larry was going to send me a female. I decided I did not want to push my luck, and asked for a male instead. I got Dillon, and he and Lily are inseparable. He does have a scar on his nose where she bit him, however. Even in the best situations, there can be skirmishes. I trust them alone together, though. If I had intense fighting between females like aloha, I would get professional help and keep them separated.

[TyChowgirl]

I always thought that owning the same *Censored Word* could throw things off balance (as a kid I thought this) So I grew up with one female dog, one male dog (my reasoning so was there was no jealously or same *Censored Word* battles) and the same with my cats. Now, I ended up getting a third cat, a male, and my first male would play rough with him sometimes, but Neko wasn't the brightest crayon in the box and kind of made him inferior in more than just age. So they got on ok. (I say this because Tulio, who I still have now, is a very intelligent and sophisticated individual). Living with my fiance now, it's back to one male and one female cat.I haven't decided what's going to happen when I get a second chow. I need my house and fenced in yard first...and now that my best friend (who is also kind of family now through my fiance's side as we hooked her up with his cousin while her and I were roommates in college) just had her son this week...I've been tilting on the side of motherhood again within the next few years and hopefully a son to play with little William and have the close bond that my fiance and his cousin shared when they were growing up. So maybe no second chow? We'll see what happens I guess. Ty gets along better with males, I've noticed, but that IS on neutral ground.