Vicious Fighting

[bellachow]

Bllachow wrote: "...it has nothing to do with the *Censored Word* of the dogs."
All respect accorded, this simply is not true.

Saying something 'simply is not true' is being disrespectful. All you have is your experience/ other's postings and all I have is my experience. And in my experience it did not matter if it was 2 males, 2 females or a male & female (over the years I have all of these at one time or another) it was the personality of the chows...So we can just agree to disagree.

[Aloha]

Thank you for all your thoughts - every one of them is interesting and educational.

We continue with OUR behavior modification training. It is difficult and sad. Roxie is desperate for attention since she is used to being fussed over. Now that we're practicing NILF and I'm the Alpha dog she doesn't get her continuous dose of puppy love. It's heart-breaking. She's going out of her way to be adorable, sitting pretty, giving 'high five' air waves since she's not allowed to jump or touch me with my command. She and Honey remain separated virtually all day except on their twice daily walks and 10 minutes a day when they are in the same room under my vigilant supervision. They pass each other occasionally when we rotate them in and out of the house. They steer clear of each other on their own.

Roxie is the epitome of 'hope springs eternal' every time someone walks in the house. The tail starts wagging furiously, the ears go back sweetly... and every visitor walks past her without acknowledging her. It's painful for everyone but most understand it's more humane to establish our hierarchy than setting them up for another dog fight.

Our next Behaviorist appointment is in a week and a half, I will be checking in before then. Thank you again for sharing your insights and fears.

[Cam Atis]

I am for Honey Bear!
Roxie at almost 2 years old is ripe for an Alpha position being younger and stronger but my heart goes to Honey as she is older and generally shared much time with you and Roxie needed to understand that. You know I used to show all my other dogs that Cookie though she's oldest, enjoyed much of my attention. They seemed to get it although I cant be sure but I had been fortunate I didnt have such situation like yours with my female dogs. Goodluck and my cheers for Honey. As for Roxie, just give her a pat on her head from me.

[Auddymay]

Bllachow wrote: "...it has nothing to do with the *Censored Word* of the dogs."
All respect accorded, this simply is not true.

Saying something 'simply is not true' is being disrespectful. All you have is your experience/ other's postings and all I have is my experience. And in my experience it did not matter if it was 2 males, 2 females or a male & female (over the years I have all of these at one time or another) it was the personality of the chows...So we can just agree to disagree.

I'm sorry, but I certainly was not being disrespectful. Hence the first part of my sentance. Also, this is not just my opinion through my experience. My experience is good relations with female/female pairings. My information comes from long-time breeders who are well versed on the breed, and also from seeing a few cases on my own. You assume it is only from here, and that is fine. You can still disagree with me by your experience, but know that it was through education I made mine. While it is not common to happen, it can, and does.

[Victory]

Females of any speicies tend to be more territorial in nature. It goes to having the proper protections, enough food and access to food to raise little ones. Canines and felines tend to show this aggression more, but it even happens among horses, mares can really tear each other up on occasion.

Males fight for dominance and once it established they are basically done from then on out, females fight for territory and that is an on going issue sometimes. I have had two intact males and as long as you establish yourself as the one and only true alpha you can generally control any issues.

Your behavorist has given you excellent advice, be consistent with the recomendations, be fair, and most of all be patient. And remember, that truly neither of them wants to be alpha, being alpha is stressful, so working that energy out, showing them who really makes the rules is good for them even beyond ending the trips to the vet.

[Victory]

I am terrified at reading this forum topic. Leo and Max are still intact (at eight months) and mouth ALL the time (we call it chomp chomp because one or the other will be perfectly quiet, walk up to the other and start "chomping" on an ear, leg, arm, etc.). They only every bark at one another when they're eating and this will be resolved with a new feeder like the other one (Leo can't make up his mind which bowl he will eat out of while Max is happy to eat from the LeBistro Feeder. Time to get another or put them on opposite sides of the room.

We have learned to pick up plates once a treat has been given so that fighting was nipped in the bud quite early, however, the play so roughly lately. It will be VERY difficult to figure out which is the true Alpha because the chomping and mounting goes either way, although the mounting (THANK GOD!) has stopped almost altogether. I have stuck my hand in both of their mouths to "test" the pressure and there isn't any until, randomly, they start pulling. Then it's either OFF or Nice, nice and they quit.

Is this the teenager in them or could it possibly get worse?? Any thoughts anyone? ((My apologies, Suzanne, I don't mean to hijack your post ... but it seemed relevant.))

Cherrie which one makes the most noise when they play fight, (and they are play fighting, my two do it all the time) That one is most likely the alpha, (or beta in reality) while the other is the omega. When I had Darkwind and Firesong, Darkwind made all the noise when they play fought, even when she was trying to drag him across the floor by his mane, Firesong was quiet. Now she is beta to Dreamdancer and when they play fight she makes all the noise and he is quiet, (unless she gets too rambuntious and then he'll yelp and the play stops as it should) My first two chows had been my parent's, and they were both intact males, Mingtoy was the beta but when I moved them that switched and the younger one became the leader, But they were 10 and 5 respectively at that time and a move, a new owner and the age difference was what spurred the change. Once it was decided there were no more fights.

[Rory's Dad]

Ah see, now i just dont know. I have had great luck (and i am sure it was luck) in owning 2 males together in that past. I think the age difference was the key there, they just kind of fell into order.

My breeder now has a new litter, and my girls (wife and daughter), are really intent on a 2nd pup. Rory is still only 9 months, so give it a month or so before the pups are ready, and we still have less than a year between them.

The sire is the same, with different mom, so they would be 1/2 relative. Since Rory is not fixed, and still showing, so that is not an option, i really dont think we can consider a female, so that would put us back to 2 males.

They are likely to be great pups, but i think we better wait.

[Aloha]

Update: We rotate Honey and Roxie every few hours. They maintain an uneasy truce but aren't allowed in the same room unless they're on a leash preparing to go for their twice daily walks. Our behaviorist came back a week ago to observe and give me more insight. He's one of the three behaviorists listed on Cesar Milan's website and possesses astonishing insight and ability. He says Roxie's a 'really good dog' but we're both leery of leaving the girls alone ever again... I am looking to re-home Roxie as an only dog or with a male dog. My contract states she must be returned to her breeder but I've been in frequent contact with her breeder who said I may re-home her if the new owner will sign a new contract. I'm not in a huge hurry to re-home her because her new home must be perfect. I will provide her new owners with two behaviorist sessions to ease Roxie's transition. This is NOT an easy decision but seeing them torn up with open wounds is worse. Honey is still on antibiotics because of her awful wounds. I will keep everyone updated. Thank you for all your support and advice.

[Cam Atis]

Sorry to hear that no solution has been found except to give away the other one. If I am near enough, I would be glad to help (but I don't meet your requirement) Some female dogs just can't tolerate each other. Rona and Kiss came from the same litter yet they would almost always erupt into a fight if ever their paths crossed. Rona was given to my uncle and Kiss remained with us. Kiss was tolerant with the kids while Rona is touchy and aloof. Rona gave birth to Ringo, a male that has to be put down because of his escalating aggression towards animals and later people. Cookie and Hera on the other hand, get along well being a mother and daughter tandem along with Luca (a female mini pinscher).

[Auddymay]

I know this could not have been an easy decision. The guilt of making just one more mistake that results in an injury would be over-whelming for you, I think. Being a good Chowrent is doing what is best for your Chows, even when it breaks your heart. I hope you can find a good fit for Roxie. She actually may not fight with certain other females, but knowing which they might be would be hard to determine, so your option of only or a male other is wise. Please let us know how this journey ends up. By the way, it sounds like you have a decent breeder.

[Aloha]

Update: Roxie still lives with us. The girls are separated all the time. Our household is like a Marx Brothers movie with back doors opening and closing and the girls being rotated outside. We have a latched gate which separates them in the house so they see each other. They sometimes lie near each other on either side of the gate but mostly ignore each other, occasionally they'll play through fence. On two occasions, both back doors were left open at the same time and the girls actually had access to each other. Both times, Roxie came into the family room and curled up in the corner with her face looking at corner. She purposely distanced herself and came and sat with us. If only she had behaved like that eight months ago... sigh...

I continue to look for a home for Roxie, but again, it must meet certain criteria. I am protective of her AND wouldn't want to put any other dogs at risk.

Roxie and I begin Agility classes today. It will give her a chance to be around other dogs and people.

[sue]

Maybe its time for you to have one more try be prepared for a vet bill but just let them in the room together & see how it goes.Just open the doors & settle down & watch TV just a chill out evening.Dont get nervous or panicky as they will pick up on this as you have said 8 months have passed things could be different matururity will have taken place with the youngest & they both know you are the boss

[gebower]

With female Chows comes a LOT of drama. They want to be the matriarch. Believe me, I know. Max is 5 yrs. old and his half sister is 4. Zeena attacks him periodically and sometimes for no reason. It really makes me mad sometimes but, I control my temper and never hit her. They don't understand that. I wish I had chosen a second male Chow instead of a female. Max has a ding above his eye right now from Zeena. My advice is to keep them separate while you're gone. And handling the fight, get a small push broom or two and keep them handy. Bring the handle under the attacker's chin and push up. She'll break and flip the broom around and keep the broom in at her face until she calms down. It takes about a minute to calm down. At least it does with Zeena. By no means get between them when they're fighting or go to the hospital sooner or later. That's why I like the small push broom. When they're in their fury they will bite ANYTHING in front of them. I mean anything. Put your leg or arm in there and good luck on that.

Wish you luck, know what you're going through.
Gene

[Aloha]

Sue and Gene, thank you for your thoughtful advice. I was planning to reintroduce them for short periods of time... unfortunately one more variable was thrown in this week when Honey began limping. I took her to the vet immediately the same day since she had luxating patella surgeries on both legs prior to her first birthday (I posted a thread about our experience for the 2nd surgery). She was diagnosed with a torn CCL. It's devastating. We have a consult this week with the surgeon who performed her first two surgeries since the hardware installed may cause complications. She'll be five next month so she has youth on her side. It's been a weepy few days... she's such a love... I'll start a new thread when I have a surgery date, etc.

I will delay reintroduction until Honey has full use of her fourth leg. I won't put her in the position of needing to defend herself with limited capabilities. Roxie is much taller, two years younger and outweighs Honey by three pounds.