Today is a sad day.. :(

[crickle_22]

Hello Fourm..

For those of you who know.. we have a chow named Koda who turned a year old on March 28th. He has captured our hearts since the day he first came into our home and we love him so much. We have had a few issues with Koda when it came to strangers because he was fearful of them as a pup and we missed out on the prime socialization time with him. We got him at a few months old... he wasn't socialized well and we worked really hard at getting him used to strangers approaching him outside of the house... and he did really well. However, after he turned a year old it seems like he is more protective of our home and of my husband and I... he is on constant alert and has given us a few sleepless nights recently due to barking and growling at EVERYTHING outside (mainly birds).
Chows really don't suit the lifestyle we have of traveling and having family in an out of our homes (our family comes to visit from out of town all the time)... Koda does really well with them but has very little patience with the children who are all under the age of 8. We have tried our very best to change our lifestyle as best we can to suit Koda, we have had family meetings where we explain the rules and boundaries with everyone we have come into our home or who come in contact with Koda.. and it has been going alright. A few months ago Koda started growling at my children (ages 3 and 2) and would growl when they would walk by him... we realized his fur was matted and we had to get him shaved and his attitude afterwards was 100 percent different. He was much happier, much more friendly and really bonded with the kids... it was perfect. I still never leave them alone together and would never trust children and any dog alone but I felt like Koda really started to love my kids too. Today.... well, today was a bad day. Koda was sitting in front on my husband on the couch and my daughter walked by to see her daddy and Koda bit her in the face. Something he has NEVER done... Both Oscar and I were in the room and were in total shock that it happend. I grabbed Koda and put him in "time out" in another room and went back to check on my daughter.. Oscar showed me that Koda bit Bianca right in the face and actually pierced her lip.. We were right there and yet he still bit her and I don't feel like my kids are safe with him... some days are good and others he just can't be bothered... and I know that dogs are like people that way, needing their space. But this was something that shouldn't have happend. My daughter walked up to her dad.. she didn't run, she didnt scream or approach Koda in any way that wasn't normal behaviour and still he bit her. We are really upset about this because we love him but as parents we have to proctect our kids. My husband loves Koda and we both cried today over the idea of giving him up... but we are at a loss. I simply can't afford the training and my children are too young to really understand the dangers of a dog like Koda.. I've tried so hard to figure this out.. I can't give him to a shelter, I don't want him put in a cage, scared... alone. He is a great dog.. he would be an awesome pet for an experienced adult chow owner and he is a remarkable dog. I can't have him in my town.. it's a small town and if I saw him on the street with another person.. as selfish as that sounds it would just break my heart to know that he isn't home wtih me. To find him a home myself I worry that I'd give him to the wrong person who wouldn't care for him properly, who didn't really know enough... I want to prevent any dangers to Koda or children that he could come in contact with.. I don't know what to do.
Koda has really bonded with us and is fearful of new people.. which makes placing him very hard... he would have to get used to someone first and I'm afraid he might not give them a chance.
He bit my daughter, he pierced her lip right in front of us... I feel like if I keep him I am sacrificing my kids safety and I can't do that.. as much as I love him.. and I truly do... I just can't risk their safety.
I don't know what to do... I dont know the steps I need to take... my heart is so broken and I can't imagine the day that he ísn't here.. but it seems that day has to come.
I know that many might be hard on me for this decision, people might think that I should have done more.. and maybe their right... but I have done EVERYTHING that was in my power to do. I have tried day in and day out to fix this.. I just can't. I need help... How do I find my Koda the best home? How do I give him what I just can't?
This just breaks my heart.

[Sarahloo]

Don't you want to try a muzzle first? Looks like the power of sitting on the couch with you went to his head. It's only the floor for him from now on.

[crickle_22]

We have a mussle, and we use it when we go out with him or if someone new comes over... but with the kids he would have to wear it ALL day... is that fair?
And he wasn't on the couch.. he was on the floor in front of Oscar who was on the couch.
Because he bit her in the face and pierced her skin.. Also... Oscar is very upset at this.. (as am I) but he is really worried about the kids getting hurt again.. and it terrifies us.

( just read what I wrote and I did write that he was on the couch.. but I didn't mean it.. he was on the floor in front of the couch.)

[Sarahloo]

I think with the right kind of muzzle he would just get used to it, like Loo did to the plastic cone on his head after his surgery.
I hope you reamed him out sooo bad after what he did!

[Sarahloo]

I don't think Loo would dare to bite again after the talking to I'd give him if he ever did bite!

[Victory]

Koda was resource guarding. That sitting infront of someone posture is a guarding posture and it can be dangerous, when your daughter approached, Koda was bascially saying, "nope, MINE." He does NOT see himself at the bottom of the heap, where he belongs, and was doing what is natural and instinctive to protect his place. Putting him in a time out immediately and hopefully a good long one, should have delivered the message that you were not pleased.

Koda is an assertive male chow who needs an experienced handler that he will accept as alpha and relax, he is very stressed at this point.
I don't recommend muzzeling him for most of each day...many dogs don't adjust to a muzzel, it's not the same as a cone, which allows their mouths free. With a muzzel, they can't eat, drink and they also realize that in fact they are helpless

Finding him may be your best option at this point...your children are too young to actively take part in NILF, and at this point I don't think you have the necessary experience. I don't remember if you've ever said where you are from. Your location is going to matter in finding him a new home. And no matter where you are, finding a new home is going to take time. I think I remember you talking about a breeder...have you contacted them to see if they will take him back?

.

[Tippsy'smom]

I'm sorry to hear this.

[crickle_22]

I know that I am in over my head... and I am guilty of that... I know I am. When we got Koda, had we known then what we know now we would have known it was beyond our experience. (He is our first dog as a family).
I was working when we got him and thought things would be alright - we would put him in training classes and would get a great dog out of the deal. The BIGGEST mistake I could have made, I made it.. Koda was fearful of strangers and wasn't socialized as we were told but he was easy to train and did sooo well. We thought the problem was gone (our inexperinece showing) and when I asked my vet if I should put him in classes they said yes, but if he already knew what was being taught then he shouldn't "need" it. I listened thinking all was in my control and it was the worst mistake I could have made. I know that now. After the first year he changed and at that time I found out I have a severe medical disability and had to leave my job... I'm waiting for disability to be processed but that takes time..right now I am on a VERY tight budget and I can no longer afford training for Koda. That might make me a bad owner but I honestly didn't see this coming. I really didn't.
Koda is an amazing dog... such a good boy with everything execpt a few quirks here and there.... My children are too young to understand the rules and I shouldn't have taken Koda when he came.. I just thought he was the perfect little boy and my kids loved him...and he loved and respected them for the first year. This is all a shock to me..
The first mistake was where Koda came from... I didn't know about backyard breeders vs CKC breeders... I didn't know about any of it... and I should have first.. I understand that now. Koda came from a woman who bred her chows and with all that I know now... she never should have given Koda to us knowing that we were inexperienced and not telling us the truth about his socialization. I could probably give him back... but I love my dog and I wouldn't bring him to a place that I now know didn't know enough before selling him to me. I would fear that he would go to anyone with the right amount of money in their pocket... My dog deserves more then that.

Rescue groups only help animals in danger or abused... Koda is not either... We treat him very well and he is very much loved. So I am afraid they wont help... but I wish they could.
For me to rehome Koda... I fear I am not qualified to find him the right place... I have a hard time trusting people and I don't want him going to someone as inexperienced as I am... I LOVE MY DOG too much to do that.
I can't put him in a shelter... I don't want him left in a cage feeling alone and afraid and worried about us... it just breaks me into pieces to think he might have a hard time bonding with others... I believe it can happen... I believe in my dog.. but I know it would have to be with the right person.

I'm sorry if it seems like I've made all kinds of mistakes, and I know that I might get judged because of this... but judge me all you want.. I know I deserve some of the critizism.. as long as with it comes information that can help my dog. That's all I want.. just to find help... even if it comes with backlash on me..

I can't leave a mussle on Koda he does okay with it.. but it's too hot for him not to be able to get water or food... I am keeping him seperated from my children.
When he bit bianca we scoleded him and put him on a VERY LONG TIME OUT... when he came out we didn't pet or talk to him... and you could see in his actions that he knew he did something wrong and was sorry... I felt so bad.

[Sarahloo]

I know that I am in over my head... and I am guilty of that... I know I am.

That isn't your fault! I'm sure there are many among us who weren't prepared for what we got when we got a chow. I know I wasn't!

I can't leave a mussle on Koda he does okay with it.. but it's too hot for him not to be able to get water or food... I am keeping him seperated from my children.

http://www.ehow.com/info_8480684_dog-mu ... nking.html
Plus you can just take the thing off for meals!

When he bit bianca we scoleded him and put him on a VERY LONG TIME OUT... when he came out we didn't pet or talk to him... and you could see in his actions that he knew he did something wrong and was sorry... I felt so bad.

Good! He really needs to get the message that his behavior was completely unacceptable!

[J & C]

I am so very sorry to hear this too. But your kids come first. Not a popular thing to say on a dog site maybe; but true. Many years ago I was bit by a beagle who was wanting to mate my breeding Schipperke. I intercepted and he got me pretty good. The "dog catcher" said they were going to put him down becuase once he'd bitten he'd bite again. I begged and begged them not to; the male dog was following instinct only. Anyway..cutting to the chase: Our little county professional firmly believed this and it will be hard to find someone to take Koda after hearing he bit. It will have to be a strong owner; perhaps somene who works at your Vet office. Just trying to think of possibilities. Having said all that; your kids will age and so will your dog mature. But a worse bite and you would never ever forgive yourselves. Only you know if the time and patience and ever watchfulness is on your side. With a lot of company Koda is getting socialized it seems. Boy, a lot to mull over but I go with the kids first here...I do wish you some needed luck to find a new home; but perhaps some thinking outside the box may lead you to make a phone call and/or network to a good strong. loving home.

[Zhuyos mom]

What is it you really want to do? Do you want to make it work out in your household? Or do you want to rehome him? If you want to keep him a part of your family, then you have to compromise things you "don't" want to do with Koda to help him be a responsible member of your family. Muzzling, crating, seeking a low cost training program, finding and affording a boot camp as first priority... all these things are available to you one on one. If you want to rehome him then by all means contact his breeder. You have to let go. That's the bottomline. Koda is in danger. He can not coexist with your children at this stage of his development. He needs further training and be given time to learn to be a good citizen. It has to be afforded to him by you and your husband. Also, try contacting your humane society and find out if there any no-kill shelters or rescues they partner with to help rehome Koda. I think you are on the eastside of Canada. We have a member from this site of old who is a chow rescuer in Collingwood, Ontario. Her name is Monica. I am not sure how active the rescue is right now. However, it doesn't hurt to give her a call. Reach out to her and see if she can help rehome Koda, or, see if she can provide you with a local resource in your community. Excellent rescuers often have a list of future adopters in mind when the right chow/dog comes their way. They have a very good sense about matching people and chow/dog. So don't think that only "you" can find Koda the right home. Don't put that responsibility on yourself at this juncture. Here is Monica's contact info. I am hoping it is current as I found it on the web.

Chow Rescue Ontario
contact Monica
Phone: 705-445-6513
chowrescueontario@hotmail.com

Do you have family (siblings, cousins) that could take him in? Or maybe your parents (I think they were the ones who gifted Koda)? They must have looked into the breed before getting Koda for you.

Good luck.

[Rex343]

Sorry to hear about Koda. I am not trying to pry into your family, but if your daughter and other children are about 5 or older you can have them help train Koda to learn his place in the family. Of course you will have to be at her side to keep her safe. Have your daughter become Koda's world. She feeds him, preparing the food, making him sit and wait for it and giving the command to eat. If Koda is not food aggressive and a little while into the training have your daughter make him back away from the bowl and do the whole sit and wait to she commands him to eat. Have her brush him, take him outside for potty breaks, walk him properly with Koda beside or behind her. Always have the children in front of you if you are walking Koda, they go first out the door. You said that you were going on disability, I hope it is not to severe and if you can move around try and take him everywere with you. We live in Seattle, WA and the ferry landings are great places for socializing. We stand at the exit with a bag of treats and let strangers give Rex treats and pet him after a proper introduction. If you can go to your local library and check out books on dog training and raising dominent breeds. We personally like the Dog Whisperer, maybe your library has some of his books you can borrow. Good luck and keep at it.

[Katjusa]

I'm really sorry to hear about what happened.
I see you love Koda so much so I'd advise you to seek professional help. Someone that could work with Koda and actually figure out what the problem is.
Now if you don't have energy or money for something like that, I hope you'll be able to find him a lovely new home and an experienced owner who'll take care of him properly.

[Sarahloo]

Have your daughter become Koda's world. She feeds him, preparing the food, making him sit and wait for it and giving the command to eat. If Koda is not food aggressive and a little while into the training have your daughter make him back away from the bowl and do the whole sit and wait to she commands him to eat. Have her brush him, take him outside for potty breaks, walk him properly with Koda beside or behind her.

A three-year-old can't do those things! Especially not with energetic Koda!

Good idea about the library though!!!

[crickle_22]

Thank you all for your advice, you have no idea how much I appreciate it. Especially right now.

Rex,

No worries about prying... I am an open book right now, willing to give any information in order to figure this out. The advice you gave was awesome... however, my daughter is only 3 and my son only 2. They have a hard time consentraiting on anything for a really long amount of time.. Koda loves them, and likes to play with them most days, it was really out of the blue his behaviour, well.. maybe not, but I didn't notcie the signs.
As for my medical issues.. unfortunately they are pretty bad. I have dislocating hips and they give out on me a random times causing me to fall and often I can put my hip back into place... The doctors here have been telling me that they have never seen someones hip do what mine is doing... and have only read about it in books... So right now they are trying to figure out what can be done.
Koda is too strong for me so my husband is the one that takes him for walks etc. I don't trust Koda without a mussle with strangers but when he has the mussle there isn't anybody here that even comes near him.
His bark is enough to scare them away... even when some of the time he barks just to get them to come close... it's not everyone that he is this way with... just some. I just can't risk trying to figure it out in case he bites someone.
My biggest worry is that he will bite someone and have to be put down... I'd rather find him a home with someone who can really change these behaviours and see the wonderful dog that he is underneath it all. Because really.. he is amazing. Truly.
As far as Ceaser Milian... we love him too. Believe it or not, even though is was a far stretch.. I wrote him... asking that he might come help, or take Koda and give him the best home. ( I doubt he will get the email, or be able to help.. but I thought it was worth a try).

Katjusa,

Thank you!! I am looking into professional help... the past few days I have been so sick that I couldn't even move (I know.. great timing eh).. but today I called a really good trainer in my area and I'm hoping she will work with me.. maybe allow me to make payments etc... I hope it helps. But Ive called her before and she wasn't able to help (when Koda first started growling)... Im praying maybe she might now... or offer advice for rehoming.

Sarahloo,

I truly appreciate you! You have been such an amazing friend on this site and I am glad you are willing to be understanding and helpful.. thank you so much!!!

Now I wanted all of your opinions when it comes to this guy in missouri... I took the advice and wrote RHR chows and he was very very nice and sounded very willing to helo... I'd never heard of this place until a few days ago and he even offered to take Koda if I could get him there (16 hours away from me). We are thinking about it... have any of you ever delt with this guy? Id like to have more information before making a decision.

Thank you guys so much for everything...

[chowpups]

so sorry to hear Koda had a set back .. its very hard with young children. I have a 3yr.old g.son who visits, so I know your fears..even without Nikki showing any signs of aggression. Its always in the back of my head ..Are you looking to rehome Koda to this guy or looking for him to train Koda for you? My question to anyone would be what is your success for training with out family participating and referrences from successful owners. If that is what you are looking for Iam not sure if Iam reading your post right? I feel for you with all you are dealing with at the moment and wish I could be of some help.

[Rex343]

How is Koda doing?

[Jenjen]

Oh Dear,
I am so sad with you. I am a chow lover. You should definitely consult w/ behavioral specialists on the forum. I am wondering if you have the resources to take Koda to a vet and get a prescription for a mild tranquilizer to use with him until you find him a new home. I don't remember you mentioning if he was neutered, if not do so ASAP. I wonder if having your children give Koda treats would do anything to help the situation?
Jenjen

[Brisco]

I'm a bit suprised at everyone trying to figure out how to make this better??? My brother had an Akita that bit his son, but not badly, they decided that it was probably not such a big deal and that they could work with him and everything would be fine. well unfortunately, 10 months later he bit his daughter in the face and she will always have the scars to remind her of it. You cannot have a dog that you don't trust around children, period. It may sound harsh and I do not envy you at all, it must be horrible for you. I wouldn't take a chance with my kids. I know it's easy to say but you shouldn't feel guilty about finding Koda a new home where he will be happy and your children will be safe. If your children can't play with your dog, be it pulling hair, poking, hugging or anything else that children might do then you have the wrong dog. I've had many dogs, almost all protective enough that they would bite to protect, but not one that I 'didn't trust with children.

Good luck with this.

P.S. I think that my brother is still a bit ashamed that he put his love for his dog ahead of the safety of his children. (15 years later)

[Katjusa]

well i agree that children do come first (probably ... don't have any yet lol)
BUT what do you mean, the dog has to let children pull it's hair and everything. I'm sorry but children have to realize that the dog is not a toy.
Now in Koda's case his bite was (as i understand) unprovoked, so it kind of makes it a very big deal... but if a dog bites someone that's abusing him ... I don't know
If you can't control your kids you can't have a dog around them (same goes for the dog of course)

it's a two-sided relationship. it's not always all dogs' fault you know

[crickle_22]

Thank you guys for caring so much and offering all sorts of advice and help.... I can't express how I appreciate it.
I have had an really emotional week and found it really hard to write in this forum for a few days... I've been constant with emailing rescues and trainers from all over. There is a really well trusted trainer/breeder in Stratford and she has given me a harsh reality check... one I know was needed. She told me that I can't train this behaviour out of Koda, I can't because it's in his breed and also personality... my children might not be safe with him even after taking him to be trained by her.. and not only my children but the children that come into my home (niece and nephews)... the MIGHT is enough for me to know that I can't keep him. It's enough for me to realize that my heart isn't realistic with reality and I need to be logical here... My dog is capable of hurting my children and I could never live with myself knowing I didn't stop it... I love my dog... I love him so much.. but my children OWN my entire heart and they need me to protect them. I'm trying to do that and protect my dog too... He can't live in my home. I can't trust him. The trainer told me that because Koda bit Bianca that he would do it again, she said that because he bit her in the face he is a BIG danger to the kids... She told me that there is no fixing that.. he needs either to be put down, or to go to a rescue group who can properly handle his issues and give him a home where they can prevent this.. one without children.
I can't put my dog down... I can't do that to him.. and I know now that it's the emotional side of me talking, but I look at him and I see that he trusts in me and I can't handle that. He doesn't deserve that.. he isnt a monster... he just can't be with kids... I've contacted Merlin in hopes that she might help me... I doubt that she will take him because he isn't abused (which is her right)... I haven't heard anything from her yet... I hope she is still on this site... I know we've had our issues.. but I need to know my dog will be okay... even if it means being mad at me... I wrote the other rescue place that was suggest on the site and I haven't heard anything back either... I need help.
The trainer told me not to rehome Koda myself because if he bites then I am still liable... that I can't and shouldn't do that. So I am out of options here... If a rescue doesn't take him... he will have to be put down... please... I dont want that to happen... I'm begging at this point... please... if there is a rescue group reading this... please help my dog. He is a good boy, he doesn't deserve this. It's my fault.. not his.

Brisco, you are right... and I know that. I can't risk my children and I've been selfish keeping Koda this long after... I know that too... I don't want to seem like I am not protecting my kids, Koda isn't around them now.. I have him seperated with gates... they cry to play with him and have to say no... and my heart is broken. I'm sorry your brother learned to late... I don't want that to be me... because I'm not the one that loses here.. my kids and my dog are the ones that are. I know that it might seem like I am being irresponsible... I'm trying my hardest not to be.. I just love my dog so much... I don't know how to let go.

Katjusa, I appreciate the advice you have given me on this site and I wish my kids were older so that I could fix this by training them... but they are still little and one mistake...just one.. could hurt them... I can't risk their saftey..

JenJen, I'm going to look into those... Koda is great with my kids most of the time.. he plays with them, he sits with them... he loves being with them... it came out of the blue... usually if he was annoyed he would growl.. and I didn't see that as a sign.. (even though I know it was one now).. but then the next time he just bit.... no warning... and if I decided to keep him and if he got worse the first time.. the second would probably be so much worse.. I see the signs now and I know I can't do this. I trained Koda not to have food aggression, my kids can take food right out of his mouth... they can pull on him and he tolerates it most of the time (I do not allow this.. but at times when they would pet him my youngest would grab fur) and Koda doesn't do anything... he just lays there... this only happend when she walked by him while he was sitting in front of Oscar... I believe now he might have been protecting Oscar as "his"....

Koda is fixed, he is upto date with shots and despite all of this I do believe he is a good boy.... we spent a lot on him in regards to vet bills and care for him... and I don't want a dime for him.. all I want is for him to be okay... to be loved, to have a good home... I don't want anything from anyone other then that... He was worth every dollar I had to spend... and worth much more then I can....

Rex343, Koda is alright... I'm looking for rescue that can take him.. I'm praying for miracle.. hoping a place will take him where he wont be put down... The trainer told me to do it soon..

I'm sorry you guys that I am a big mess right now..

[crickle_22]

I don't have much time to write again.. my kids are up from their nap.. but I just had to say that I am so thankful for all your efforts, every person that offered me advice and help, I just can't put into words. THANK YOU!
I didn't hear from the contact that zhuyos mom gave (above) after I wrote her an email... after writing the above post I decided to try and call her. She was the blessing that I had been waiting for and after hearing me explain my situation (without sugar coating) she still said that she could help and that Koda can find a good home and he would be okay.... it's going to be a process and it could take a week up to a month and if I need Koda out asap then she would find a way to get him to where he needs for a foster home... She is just so wonderful and my dog is going to get a good home and more importantly he is going to live.
I am really heartbroken that he can't stay with me... but this is what he needs, it's what we need and he is going to be okay. I am going to miss him so much and my family is going to miss him.. I still don't know how to explain it to my kids... but I know that the end result is going to be okay.. Thanks to this wonderful caring woman... and all of you.

I am going to give his new owner this site, and I'm going to hope that they use it to find out answers they might need and just to have access to all of you.... I hope they use it so you all can hear how Koda is doing.
There is a brightside to this awful story.. and I am going to try and stay focused on that when he leaves. I'm hoping it will help me through this... thank you all so much. From the bottom of my heart, I appreciate it!

Crystal.

[Sarahloo]

I'll be sad to see you go!

But I'm happy for Koda! He's lucky he's so cute. His looks will help him find a new home. Yes, even dog owners are a little shallow!

[Rex343]

Glad to hear that Koda is going to a good home. Sorry that you had to go though all that.

[Brisco]

Crystal,
I'm very happy that you have found Koda a home. I hate to even imagine having to do the same, but the right choice is very seldom the easy choice. And a tiny bit of advice that you may not need or want. I wouldn't mention anything about the bite on the lip as being the reason. Bianca then might feel responsible for it and she's not.

Katjusa, Yes it is a two way street, but My male Chow Brisco, would NOT bite a child that pulled his hair. I've never owned a dog that would. I do beleive that if you have children around you should make sure that you have a dog that can be trusted. I read on here quited often about not leaving a child alone with any dog, i think that that is just crazy. There are several breeds that are specifically bred to watch over and protect children, the Chow is not one of those and most people that know the breed would agree that they are not the best choice of dogs for children. I don't want to turn Crystals heartache into an argument. I just wanted to point out to her that she should try not to have such a huge guilt about finding Koda an appropriate home and that there are plenty of dogs that they can get that they will
grow to love as much as koda, without there children being in danger.