Stubborn or Intelligence?

DarrenFergus · Post by **DarrenFergus** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:48 pm

Hi everyone i just stumbled across this article and its made me a little mad to be honest just want you'r guys opinions. I think hes an idiot.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2003/ ... equestions

Me & Tess · Post by **Me & Tess** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:07 pm

Couldn't pull it up.....

DarrenFergus · Post by **DarrenFergus** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:18 pm

ok that should be it working.

Post by **kingalls** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:17 pm

The person that wrote the article is a dope

Most dogs are easy to "train". Chows are very intelligent and if it doesn't make sense to do what you're asking, it's not going to get done. Many Chows are not treat oriented either so that makes it more challenging.

Judy Fox · Post by **Judy Fox** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:44 am

As Karen says, the writer is a dope.

The thing is with Chows - they are very proud, stubborn, self-sufficient. They will not play if they don't want to. For example, if you throw a ball for them they will look and their attitude is "Oh, if you want it go and get it".

Some of these tests to measure a dog's intelligence are fine but the Chow Chow does not respond. That does not mean that they are not intelligent - on the contrary, it means they will not do anything if they do not see a reason for it. I mean, why would a Chow Chow chase a stick thrown!

That is below even the young chowling.

There again, chows do love being played with - the game is of their choosing. For example, our Maisie is a funny creature. If I walk the first two fingers of my hand across the carpet to her she will pat them with her paws to hold my hand down then she will let go and wait for me to do it again. I then withdraw my hand and do it again and again she will pat my hand with her paws. That is our little private game. Matilda loves to play "roll-a-ball". She will foll a tennis ball to us with her nose or her paw and we will roll it back to her and this will go on for as long as she chooses. These little games do not indicate a stupid dog, merely a dog who is enjoying some time with us. Throw Matilda a ball in the garden and she looks at us as if we are stupid - so does Maisie. Milly and Mabel also had their own little games with us and they also played "kicky ball", as our granddaughter called it when they would trot side by side along the garden with a football and kick it around. No that takes skill, not stupidity.

Another test that these so called experts on dog behaviour do is putting a towel or something over the dog to see how it shakes it off. I remember reading one report that said chow chows are so stupid they cannot shake it off. I would contest that comment. When I would put a towel on Milly, she would just walk off with it still on her with a big chow grin on her face. So these tests are stupid - not the chow Chow! $\:D/$

When you see dogs performing various tricks and things, that is fine - the dog wants to but I am sure you will have found that your boy is far too dignified and proud to do what a mere dog does.

Sarahloo · Post by **Sarahloo** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:26 am

Wow, what a messed up article! That guy was definitely bitten by a Chow as a boy because he was too stupid to take his hand out of its mouth!

As has already been said, Coren's ranking is based on trainability and not on actual intelligence. Independent breeds like the Chow score low, co-dependent breeds like the Golden Retriever score high.
Nicely explained in here:
http://www.amazon.de/Your-Dogs-Not-Lass ... 674&sr=8-1

CoraP. · Post by **CoraP.** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:11 am

What an awful article. And to say there is "furniture" that's smarter than a chow

! That makes me very angry!!! I love the chows independent nature and don't care if they ever do "tricks"!

Sarahloo · Post by **Sarahloo** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:34 am

Chows were not bred as food animals, either.

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:15 am

I really remember that article.
Keep in mind it was written 7 years ago now. ( I agree it's unfortunate that it is still in print), but I know back then, reams of chow fanciers wrote the author to update his clear ignorance of dog breeds.

There is of course nothing stopping you from writing to him also.

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:16 am

Sarahloo wrote:Chows were not bred as food animals, either.

oh yes they were, and in certain areas of China / ( even though verboten)- they still are along with many other breeds of dogs.

Sarahloo · Post by **Sarahloo** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:41 am

Merlin wrote:
Sarahloo wrote:Chows were not bred as food animals, either.
oh yes they were, and in certain areas of China / ( even though verboten)- they still are along with many other breeds of dogs.

Oh no they were not ORIGINALLY bred as food animals. That Guardian guy can't argue that 3000 years ago people decided to create the chow breed for eating and that's why they're stupid, because cattle don't need brains.

Just not true. They were bred to be strong, independent hunters of all sorts of prey, from boar to bear. Yes, during some famine or other people decided dogs would make good eating (as we all know), and there were dog farms where chow-like dogs were bred, but that has nothing to do with the origin of the breed. Nowadays nobody would entertain the thought of eating a purebred chow. It's poor mutts and mixes that get eaten, but purebred chows are considered way too valuable for eating!

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:51 am

t's poor mutts and mixes that get eaten, but purebred chows are considered way too valuable for eating!

Not to be argumentative, but I can tell you that in China, there is little or no distinction between purebred and none purebred when it comes to dog meat. Any dog is fair game and chows would certainly be no exception. They were not only used for food but for clothing as well, and dog eating was never limited to eras of famine. It's only recently that dog meat consumption has been outlawed in China. I agree that they were not solely bred for food, but because of logistics, became a valuable food source, so little emphasis was placed on domesticating them.

It has to do with logistics. A large heavy dog gives more meat. A chow would be an easy keeper, and would yield lots of meat, just like Bernese Mountain dogs, which by the way a few years ago was the breed of choice for dog farmers in China. You can still buy Bernese Mountain dog and chow carpets online from dealers in China. As a matter of fact, at the last furniture show, there was an entire uproar because several ads and several showrooms had carpets AND bedspreads made out of dog fur. I know because my business partner was there at the time. I even have a picture here somewhere and will try to dig it up for you!

The chow is a direct descendant of a Tibetan Mastiff, and knowing this majestic breed tells you just how capable a chow can be.

gumbychow · Post by **gumbychow** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:04 am

Ouff ..
Great ...
Here's proof of how a rumor starts ..
They are too aggressive a ...
They are hypocrites ...
They are dangerous ...
Now, he takes an earlier search made by a non-body.
And the chow is a stupid dog.
We all know that the chow is different and that his behavior is the result of a previous race non-mixed (for human needs)
The chow is not a specialist dog.
It is also necessary to pretend that it was used for meat
The Chinese invented the cooking.
Everything is consumed in China (dog, cat, bird ....) serprent
Make an IQ test is stupid.
intelligence belongs to the human race.
We can determine that the dog was easier to do what man wants and does not know she is smarter race. We must adapt our test because each dog breed has a different behavior with humans.
N.B.
my chows:
jokes are all dogs, (standing, sitting, sleeping, giving the leg or two ...).
pulling a sled
runs in a big pipe
climbed a ladder from slipping and sliding
walking on a beam
opens its doors
walk on my feet (on a leash ...)
climbs a wall like a German shepherd (a half wall)
guard dog par excellence, and baby sister at the same time
impossible to put a muzzle it frees
many other things ...
make different noises to ask me or tell me things ....
All this is true
They are not stupid ..
They are small problems:
the king's escape (true Steeve McQueen)

He does not like cats, dogs and pets.
Always repeat the commandments ...
Because you chow analysis, and will act if he wants or if the stimulus is pleasant.
(They are not crazy, just a little human ...)

Sarahloo · Post by **Sarahloo** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:06 am

Merlin wrote: Not to be argumentative, but I can tell you that in China, there is little or no distinction between purebred and none purebred when it comes to dog meat.

Well, that's not what I read, so who knows who's right.

Ancient Chinese chronicles put the Chow in the "sporting dogs" (hunters) category and explicitly not in the dogs bred for eating category. The Chow was originally a hunter (and therefore NOT bred stupid), and not dinner, and that was the entire point I wanted to make.

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:13 am

so who knows who's right.

Saraloo, it's as easy as knowing the country itself.
Rich people would, yes, have bred chows to be companion dogs that were coveted as prize possessions, along with many other breeds that were fancied by the rich like pekes.
90% of the country is not rich, so dogs have an entirely different meaning to those people. Owning a dog as a "Pet", in China was a pure luxury.

Again, in upper Mongolia, there is no doubt that the chow played a valuable role as a working dog, and on the steppes, like all of their other animals, they were and still are used for other purposes. Don't confuse the fancies of the wealthy, to the needs of the poor and that of the farmers.

Chows are not stupid. We all know that, except humans who just don't understand how to work with dogs that are not domesticated. ( and there are plenty of them)

Victory · Post by **Victory** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:56 am

Sarahloo wrote:As has already been said, Coren's ranking is based on trainability and not on actual intelligence. Independent breeds like the Chow score low, co-dependent breeds like the Golden Retriever score high.
Nicely explained in here:
http://www.amazon.de/Your-Dogs-Not-Lass ... 674&sr=8-1

The book looks good, I'd just want to say that anyone who has ever had a collie knows that they are also a very independent breed and while they may not ignore you, they have ways of getting back at you that will astound you. When I was growing up in Los Angeles, the weekly adventures of "Lassie" at home made it the paper. The time Rud and the Mrs. went off and left Lassie #4 alone, and he, (most of the Lassie's are males) decided to let in all the collies, (and other breeds) from kennels into the house and then opened the refrigarator for them all....was quite classic. (he'd been trained to open doors, gates, kennels, and refrigrators for the show, but they didn't think he'd ever do them all on his own. Silly hoomans,

) After all the big rough collies, were bred to take a herd of sheep out, with another dog or two and sometimes without a human along and look after the sheep all by themselves. They are independent, thinking and a pain to train too.

Border collies are the different though, very dependent, easy to train, although smart too.

Victory · Post by **Victory** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:04 am

Some where on here is an old document about what a chow was bred for and their ancient size etc. (We've had this conversation before) Ancient man used ALL domestic animals for many things. When young and vibrant, a chow; pulled sleds, hunted, (ground birds and even bigger prey) guarded, (against people and other predators, like big cats and bears), and when the chow got old, it was used for it's fur and food. Same thing for other animals like goats, yaks, and horses.

That stubborness we all brag about is a part of their guarding and hunting drive, it takes a lot for an 80lb canine to stand up to a 150lb bear or big cat, yet we even today hear about chows that do just that, and come away okay from such encounters. What some trainers call stubborness I think we should call bravery instead.

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:10 am

What some trainers call stubborness I think we should call bravery instead

I agree, I also call it independant leadership, and as many will argue, people with a higher IQ are often stubborn and rebellious.
That almost goes without saying.
Many people just don't understand the concept.

KenW · Post by **KenW** » Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:43 am

I realize this is an old thread but while looking around for info on Chow's I came across it.
I'm going to have to disagree with you all. I have a Chow she is about 4 years old, we have had her about 3 years now and I must say that she is about the dumbest dog I have ever had and yes she is bullheaded as hell but in this case there is a difference. I have had many dog's over the years all different breads, type's and size's. Now as to why I say dumber that a box of rocks, she will be in the house, I will go in to the bedroom, she see's me do this, 5 minutes later I will walk out and she go's crazy barking at me like I'm an intruder and this happens every time, it's like she has a 30 second memory and forgot that there was another person in the house (me) and that I just walked into the other room, she will be in the back yard, I will step out the back door again she go's nut's.

Judy Fox · Post by **Judy Fox** » Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:31 pm

Disagree as much as you like!

I would suggest that your chow chow is the exception rather than the rule.
My chow chows are highly intelligent and very chow like and so are the other chows whose owners visit this site.
So, I suggest there may be something wrong with your chow. Is she poorly? Has she been damaged? Or ill treated?
~From what you are saying, she is certainly not behaving like a chow chow.
Try to see what is wrong and maybe visit the vet.

beckysmyth92 · Post by **beckysmyth92** » Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:30 pm

Whoever write that article is an idiot!

Chows are perfectly trainable.. and here is proof! My 10 month old girl following commands!

Being intelligent is something the chow most certainly is in my opinion! Obedient is not the same as intelligent and I do agree that chow's do not always do as commanded however they can and will do it when it suits them!

Enjoy

http://youtu.be/Gz7PcnTPZxs

applebear · Post by **applebear** » Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:20 pm

All dogs are different, not all in the breed are exactly the same. I took my male chow to a obedience class way late, having only 2 weeks left to the class [that's 1 class per week]. I barely worked with him, literally...like one or two very short sessions at home. He still finished 4th in a very large class of other dogs that had been there for the entire course. HE did the brain work here, I was a lazy 16 year old kid who didn't put in the time. By the next year, I was called out with my chow to demonstrate commands for the class. Nothing changed...I was still lazy. lol Not bad for a 'stupid chow.'

To the post with the forgetful, barking chow....I would be more concerned it's a health problem like eyes or even ears. Either that or something behavior wise...it may have nothing to do with memory at all.

Pinoy51 · Post by **Pinoy51** » Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:46 pm

I already feel pity for the misunderstood Chow and the dumb owner. As others said, there is definitely a health problem or mental problem due to wrong or abusive treatment.
I don't want to put up more examples for intelligence and anticipating obedience of my two chows as everyone here knows it already and can write tons of examples as well.
To the owner of the "dumb" Chow: do the poor animal a favor and find a better caretaker for your Chow.

TyChowgirl · Post by **TyChowgirl** » Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:25 pm

My chow can show up that article and the owner with the "dumb" chow easily. I have never taken Ty to an obedience course, yet he knows all his basic commands and a bag full of tricks. He learns easily and likes to, on his terms. You have to find what works for your chow like learning styles with people, each dog and chow is different. I will say that Ty still barks and huffs at our roommate and friend when he comes home, but it's died down a lot and my husband brought up an interesting point. Our roommate smells different when he comes home. He works at a tractor supply store and is around other animals, equipment, feed, etc. all day and it's different on a day to day basis. But he's taken out Ty (after we've put on the collar and leash) and he's done fine with him. We also have a chow on the shy side of personality so he's a bit more jumpy. But he's certainly not stupid.

ski · Post by **ski** » Mon Feb 04, 2013 5:18 pm

I have had a variety of dogs over the years...border collie, lab, beagle, mixes, etc.....all rescues. Loki found us as he was in serious need of a home. Within a very short time I realized he was not like any other dog we had. I find him to be manipulative. In a very short time he figured out how to get me to do what HE wants.
I think indifference is sometimes confused with lack of intelligence.

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