Help! LEO throwing a tantrum!

LEO's mum · Post by **LEO's mum** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:35 am

I think this is an alpha issue. But I need help/directions in dealing with it. Please help.
LEO is usually very sweet. However, she sometimes throws a tantrum at me. This is what happened. She sees a dog at her favourate Cafe, where the water bowl is. The dog is tied & on its own. So we get close but kept an distance and waited for the owner to come out. We waited for say 3-5min but nothing, so I wanted to continue w/ our walk or go home. She didn't like that. She wanted to go closer to the dog or to the water bowl. We tug, she starts biting the leash at the harness, then she attacks me. We wrestle, she tries to bite me, me holding by the side of her mouth, so if she bites she'll bite on her skin as well. During this time I am telling her NO!, Eheh! in a firm voice(for me anyways). I finally calm her down by scratching her back where the tail rests, her itchy spot. I have bruises on my arms and my hands. Lucky I had long sleeves on. This hasn't happened out of the blue. She tries to play bite when at home, and thanks to auntie Lou, the rattle-can has worked, tho we had only one incedent of that lately. I have also tried water spray & time-outs, but it is not registering w/ any long time effect, evidently.
It is more difficult to control when we are out on walks. I have tried to wrestle her to the ground, I have tried to bite her ear, I have also hit her once on the side of the mouth(prob not hard enough).
I thought she'd grown out of this stage at 8 m/s but obviously not. It is not good PR for the breed either. I might have to call in a trainer, but as it would be me who has to get educated, I ask for your help on this board before I do so. Please help...

Post by **chris** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:43 am

OMG.. ummm, I could be of no assistance here. I have no idea what to think of it.

Was it hot out?
Was there something caught in the leash or harness that when you pulled back on it it "hurt" ? (punctured the skin) or something to that effect?
Was she playing or.. do you feel like she would have BIT you out of anger?.. (what am I asking, of cource you think that otherwise you wouldn't have posted.. )

Judy Fox · Post by **Judy Fox** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:10 am

Oh Dear! Little baggage!

That is naughty and she is challenging you isn't she? Who is in charge of the walk - you are her - that would seem to be what she is telling you - or asking you?

I don't know what to suggest other than try to avoid the confrontation.
Mabel used to be very stubborn (and can still be so sometimes) when we walk in the park. If she sees another dog she will refuse to carry on walking and will want to watch it out of sight. We tell her to walk on with us and mostly she does but sometimes, if she decides to be stubborn, we let her sit it out and watch - she gets bored before we do and we have not caused an incident.
That might sound like the easy way out - I don't know - the situation is not as you are experiencing.
I think maybe if you can avoid "arguing" with her because by nipping you, she has won.!
Good Luck!

Judy Fox · Post by **Judy Fox** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:10 am

Edited out double posting!

kiwani · Post by **kiwani** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:10 am

In a nutshell, it seems she is taking out her frustrations on you, and your behaviors (wrestling her, biting her), are more like pack member competitor, rather than pack leader. She isn't showing you respect, and you 'scratching' her favorite spot during these scuffles, lowers your rank.

Take her back to the 'nothing in life is free' technique. She gets nothing good without earning it, including meals. And, carry your own water on these hikes, rather than frustrate her if the regular fountain access is blocked.

LEO's mum · Post by **LEO's mum** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:47 am

Thank you Kiwani. I can do that including the food as she is fed only kibbles and Nature's Balance Lamb(the big sausage looking package) as training treats(baits). She will eat from my hand more readily than from a bowl. Altho up to now, she seems to be doing the NILF on me, looking at me like where's the meat? after hearing my commands.

I know I am too soft on her most of the times....

Post by **Zhuyos mom** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:54 am

"She tries to play bite when at home, and thanks to auntie Lou, the rattle-can has worked, tho we had only one incedent of that lately"

Oh, yipes... that's not what the rattle-can was for. Call me and I'll tell you how to have her stop play biting you. Rattle-can was for her other naughties. Seriously, call me.

kiwani · Post by **kiwani** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 12:24 pm

Re: "she is fed only kibbles and Nature's Balance Lamb(the big sausage looking package) as training treats(baits)."
___

Is that the brand with the added sugar and salt? Both those ingredients can affect behavior too.

Re: "she seems to be doing the NILF on me, looking at me like where's the meat?"
---

Teaching her to earn your affection is also important. She must value that as much.

You can turn this around. Best wishes.

Judy Fox · Post by **Judy Fox** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 12:58 pm

Just another thought - remember she is at the stage where she thinks she can challenge you for who is going to tell who!
Fred asked me to remind you of what our lady vet used to say about managing a chow. If being difficult, and you think she is going to stop and not go on, you stop, tell her to sit - give a treat - talk to her and then once she has done what you told her to do which was what she was going to do anyway, (hope that makes sense

), you have got your own way, she has had her treat and hopefully you will be on your way. She is getting older by the day and these naughty tantrums will fade out as she matures.

PurpleKisses · Post by **PurpleKisses** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 1:11 pm

I agree with hitting the NILIF again hard, but if that was Chi-Ching, he would have a reprecussion for acting like that, he would go home and go to bed. He would not get to continue his walk or be allowed to do anything fun after that instance. That is (at our house) a completely unacceptable behaviour.

Another thing you can do, while it is not the easiest, it can keep you from being bit, also it keeps her from getting hurt(plus you won't have to actually grab her or swat her) is AS SOON as she starts freaking out on the leash, you step on the leash and slide the leash handle upwards, basically forcing her into a down(Does that make sense?) You end up with your foot by her collar and she should be forced into a down. While, like I said, it doesn't look the most pleasent(It will NOT hurt her) but it is safer for you not having your hands and face near her when she is freaking out.

Because chows have such good memories, I let Chi-Ching know that I do too. If this scenario were the case with my dog, I would take him for a walk again(normal time) and when we got to the same area of dispute, we would not stop, you will know that they want to, but I would just tell Chi-Ching that he wasn't nice last time, and so he will not get to stop this time. It is the same as a child, my girls know that if they do not behave at McDonalds, they don't get to go again for a while. My dog is no different.

Jeff&Peks · Post by **Jeff&Peks** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 1:55 pm

Anyone ever think that maybe Leo was thirsty, He had been walking see's a water bowl,wants to get a drink but is pulled back, made to wait then pulled from the water with out getting a drink to go home. Just my opinion but on my walks I have a zero tolerance for thirst and hunger, especially when its 80+ degrees outside, Give Leo a break, The lord and master role only goes so far.I carry a collapsible water dish in my pocket at all times.

We can stand there and watch a Child through a tantrum because it's thirsty and think oh how cute, Let a Chow do the same thing and its oh my god Leo is a killer beast. Your hands were close enough to the bottom of the leash so I'm sure he was just trying to bite the leash trying to get a drink and your hands were in the way.

Tell Leo don't worry about it Legal defense for a Chow is free.

Its a good thing Chi-Ching is a Chow, A dog would never understand going home and going to bed with out Dinner.

LEO's mum · Post by **LEO's mum** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:28 pm

Thank you everyone. I'll keep on trying the NILIF and distraction technique i.e. rattle-cans or high pitch squealing/barking. And thank you Jeff for being on chows side as always. I still believe it is a dominance thing, my will against your will. She might have been thirsty a bit, but the morning walks in foggy SF is not too trying even for my hairy princess. The weather has been nice and overcast lately, we even ventured the trails w/in Presidio on Saturday from Lombard gate-Baker Beach-GG-Lombard Gate which took us a good 4hours and a bit. I never thought I would so cherish the chilly foggy mornings before I got her... Anyways, we know that if any chow needs a good defence lawyer, it would have to be you!

PurpleKisses · Post by **PurpleKisses** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:43 pm

Jeff, why throw in the little remarks like that? Every dog that freaks out and tries to bite gets no special treatment from me. I do not care what breed they are. And FYI, I NEVER think it is cute to see little kids acting like little brats, my kids would never get away with it. I have taken them out of the store and driven them home, we have not gone to birthday parties, we have left the beach to come home and do nothing just to show them I will not tolerate tantrums and fits over stupid stuff. My kids do not get away with it and neither will my dog....chow or not. BTW, My dog never goes to bed without dinner, I said he wouldn't get any special treatment. No petting, no snuggles, no more walk,(he can go in the backyard to potty), no sleeping on the couch or bed, not a thing that he would like to do. He would go directly into his crate and sit there. I will not tolerate aggression of any sort, especially just because the dog didn't get its way. It is no different then a time out that my kids owuld do. They don't get to play either, they either sit in their time out areas, or they go to their bedrooms.

We have already established that I teach my dog differently then alot. I tried to tell Leo's mom what I would do if it were me in that situation.......thats all.

Jeff&Peks · Post by **Jeff&Peks** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 3:03 pm

the morning walks in foggy SF
we even ventured the trails w/in Presidio on Saturday from Lombard gate-Baker Beach-GG-Lombard Gate which took us a good 4hours and a bit. I never thought I would so cherish the chilly foggy mornings before I got her...

Now your just tying to make me envious, Good job it worked.

LEO's mum · Post by **LEO's mum** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 3:13 pm

Yes, Jeff the comments were made just for you!! You ought to come back up north, where the weather is kinder and so are the people. I even have a vet near by who is not afraid of chows altho he has been bitten by many, including the one old chow which lunged at his throat requiring him to get, was it 50? or whatever stitches... Oh, I hope that wasn't HRH....

Jeff&Peks · Post by **Jeff&Peks** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 3:27 pm

American Express once had a saying about Tahoe but it can be used for SF and the whole Bay area, "There is no better place".

redangie24 · Post by **redangie24** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 3:27 pm

I think the answer lies somewhere between jeff and purple. I think its always good to make sure that you have water for your pup. Also, I used the leash underfoot method many times and I have to say that it has worked for me.

sixchows · Post by **sixchows** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 3:38 pm

FWIW OJ used to do the same when we first found him. He had certain "triggers", such as another dog walking outside "HIS" fence. Another trigger was if there was a female in season around. When Nala would go into heat he would lose his mind! Out of frustration in both cases he would bite the leash first, then go for whoever was holding it in an attempt to get them to drop it so he could run off and do what he wanted.

Like Kiwani said, a little solitary confinement and the cold shoulder finally brought him around. At first I made the same mistake as you by giving him a little slap on the side of the face. No too hard just enough. Well he didn't even flinch! He sat in front of me holding his breath glaring at me as if to say "don't make me kill you!"

All these years later, he will on a rare occassion revert to his old ways, but always corrects himself immediately! He actually stops right in the middle and sits and gives his paw! Then comes over and nuzzles his head against my leg as if to say "sorry".

Jeff&Peks · Post by **Jeff&Peks** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 3:59 pm

You guys are getting to deep for me, What is NILIF, HRH and FWIW?

Who's the little black Chow with the ball that I guess is the same big black Chow, Good looking Chow or Chows if not the same Chow.

PurpleKisses · Post by **PurpleKisses** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 4:00 pm

Nothing In Life Is Free
Her Royal Highness
For What Its Worth

sixchows · Post by **sixchows** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 4:00 pm

FWIW = For What It's Worth

The other two... I have no idea! First time I've seen them.

LEO's mum · Post by **LEO's mum** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 4:22 pm

Her Royal Highness = Pekoe

Post by **Zhuyos mom** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:02 pm

sixchows wrote:FWIW = For What It's Worth

Thank you!!! Couldn't figure that acronymn out too. Where the heck is ngraham when I need her to translate?!

Post by **Zhuyos mom** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:07 pm

Jeff&Peks wrote:Now your just tying to make me envious, Good job it worked.

Ah Jeff, you have NO idea how good Leonora (Leo) has it there! And now that the very pet friendly ILM/Lucas Studios are there...Zhu and PB can only dream it! I'm sure Leo is prepping everything and the crowd for Pekoe's return!

ngraham · Post by **ngraham** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:32 pm

Lou wrote:
sixchows wrote:FWIW = For What It's Worth
Thank you!!! Couldn't figure that acronymn out too. Where the heck is ngraham when I need her to translate?!

Here I am Lou... reading the posts and laughing.
Here's you new acronym for the week Lou: LMBO (laughing my butt off)
I think the nothing in life is free thing works well... at least it has been with my spoiled Molly.