Two same s-x chows

[Sirchow]

I wondered what peoples thoughts/experiences are on two same s-x chows living together are. In this case both girls but not litter mates. I know that there are quite a few of you with more than one and some more than two so you must have dealt with this issue. I am not sure if the worries of the US members would be the same here in the UK as our chows seem to be different natures in general. I have been thinking for a while about another and waiting for Bramble to get fit and sound again. I don't want to rush into this decision and it would have to be the right girl. I am thinking possible in the New Year which would mean starting looking soon as there are so few breeders in the UK that you need to put your name down quite early.

[Auddymay]

Many of us have same sax Chows, girls imparticular. The majority of us have no problems. There are a few cases though, that the females stop getting along at adulthood. When that happens, it is very ugly. Nice apart, not so good together. I would not say no, never. But, the next time this comes up for me, I will try to avoid a same *Censored Word* pairing, because if it happened they did not get along, I would be at a loss as to how to keep both animals.

[chow fancier]

I am one of those who once had two girl chowdren. Tasha had both the same parents as Chana but was from the next litter (1 year and 2 days later). They were great playmates and best friends until they were about 7 and 8 years old. A neighborhood cat was allowed to wander and seemed to enjoy tormenting my girls from the other side of the fence. One day when the cat was on the other side of the fence and they were running along the fence in response they collided. Tasha took out her frustration on Chana and Chana ended up at the vets office from the bite she received. From that day on Tasha took out any frustrations on Chana. Chana had surgery twice due to infection from the bites.

I tried keeping them apart but Chana broke through every barricade to get to her sister. She didn't like being separated from her one bit and even managed to scratch and chew a hole entirely through a solid wooden door in one day (my house was built in the twenties, the doors are hardwood and substantial). Eventually, the only solution seemed to be either rehoming one or putting Tasha down but I could not see doing either.

A sympathic vet told me there was one other option but it wasn't recommended because it just shifted the balance in power and might just allow the other dog to win each altercation. We had Tasha's canines root canaled and clipped flat. She lost the next altercation and never initiated another after that day. They both lived to be thirteen and were good friends and playmates the rest of their lives together.

However, I can not possibly convey the emotional cost of those few months when they were fighting. I wouldn't want to go through it again so all my chow pairs will be opposite *Censored Word* from now on.

[Victory]

It really, really depends on the personalities of the chows. Most of the females that live with other females are playful but not hypertense. Meaning the go off with every sound, every unknown thing etc. Those kinds of females will go after the others when they are upset, in fact they will go after any other dog they live with. My Firesong does that, because of the dynamics between males and females when she gets overwhelmed and goes after the male they put up unless she gets too carried away and if she does they can diffuse her temper without it bcomming overly violent.

[Dogdad]

I had 2 male chows well a mix ( Maxwell ) and a purebred (Yoshi) They got along for the first month but then all H broke loose. Yoshi would attack Maxwell for no apparent reason, Maxwell would try to avoid Yoshi and Yoshi would go after him. It was so bad, Yoshi and Maxwell had to be separated. Maxwell died about 3 months ago and we brought in a female Maxine. She is doing much better with Yoshi and vis a versa. Due to my experience I would never get two males again at the same time.

David

[sweetpea]

I have two females. Gracie is 4 and Princess is 5. The two do well together BUT we have to pay close attention to Gracie's moods. If for some reason she gets frustrated about something, she will turn on Princess at the blink of an eye. What I have noticed is she has a tendancy to hold a grudge against Princess after a fight has broke out. I don't like to keep them seperated any longer than I have to because I believe the grudge just builds so I give them time apart to calm down then start working on the reminder that they have to get along. Now we understand what happens to make Gracie go after Princess so we are prepared to react quickly to try to stop it before it happens. If Gracie can have a time out when she's about to attack Princess, within a hour or two she is ready to play and be nice. If it breaks into a fight, it could take several days and alot of work to get her over it. Two females can be a lot of work.

[vicster605]

As someone once said, having two same *Censored Word* Chows that get along is the EXCEPTION and not the rule. I have 2 females who loved each other until puberty and then all HELL broke loose. Fights so bad that fur and blood would fly, literally all over my walls and doors...... MANY Vet bills. Breaking up two Chows fighting was best described as two male wolves fighting over a female as seen on National Geo. And thats exactly what its like.....SCAREY and DANGEROUS. They literally try to kill each other. ITS A RISK...... and if I were you I wouldn't take it. It is a heartbreak & a nightmare, I wouldn't wish that on anyone. For me NEVER AGAIN will I have 2 of the same gender. I too asked the same question you are and I also was warned of this possibility........you can't imagine what people who have been thru this are talking about, and think this won't happen to you........ I didn't listen and I wish I had. I still have my 2 girls, the last fight almost cost my Kearra her life. Its been 6 months since their last go round.....you learn when you have to have them separated, you learn their stressors, you learn to read their body language and you learn to watch when they are getting excited....a squirrel, a cat.....food, treats, when YOU are stressed out etc. All of this learned by having fights break out....... If you are not experienced with this, such as myself when all this started for me 2 yrs ago......you learn the HARD WAY. The stand offs that occur here last about 2 seconds....a posture....then an all out fight to the death.
Its easier just to get an opposite gender and NOT TAKE THE RISK.

[Judy Fox]

This is a difficult one Siriol.

We have Milly and Mabel as you know and they are litter sisters and we have never had so much as the hint of a growl from either of them.

We brought Milly home when they were six weeks old and Mabel went to live with their sire's family. When they were 6 months old, I happened to be speaking to the sire's owner on the telephone and she mentioned that she was looking for a home for Mabel and as we had just lost Humphrey, our daughters old Lhasa Apso we were delighted and asked if we could buy her.

We travelled over to Yorkshire a couple of days later and took Milly with us.

When we arrived there were about 13/14 chow chows all milling around. Little Milly Ching was a little overwhelmed at first so I picked her up but a few minutes later I put her down again. There were three dogs there, I think - M & M's sire, their litter brother and another dog. The rest were bitches and there was absolutely no aggression or tension at all. They all had a good sniff and a harrumph and hello at Milly and then Mabel and Milly came face to face. They started to lick each other and to whimper and to cry and I believe that they did recognise each other and were pleased to see each other.

Mabel slept in a "Wendy House" with her Grandmother and her half-sister and indeed, all the chows were put up at night in their own little houses in twos or threes and they were fine. During the day, they were all out together and they were obviously happy.

We brought Mabel home and they have never so much as glared at each other - no growling - they are just devoted to each other.

I think there are two issues here. Either the Chow Chows bred here on The Island have been carefully bred for their temperament or we are extremely lucky in having two chow girls who have good nature in their blood-line. I have just checked their pedigrees and have to go right back to their Gt. Gt.Gt. Grandparents before there is a duplication of names so M & M have not been inbred.

I spoke to their breeder in Cumbria and she told me that she had their mother Lizzie and her litter sister and they were sweet with each other and helped care for each other's babies. She also had two or three more bitches and there was no nastiness at all and in fact they all took a share in the baby-sitting.

So there you go, Siriol - I hope this is of help.

I am afraid I do not know of any other examples. As you know, Chow Chows are few and far between here on The Island. I suppose you could speak to as many breeders as you can and see what the feedback is.

[Sirchow]

Thank you all very much for your experiences and opinions. It is something that will definitely need some more thought. I am not sure what you mean Johnathan about establishing a pack. We have Alfie (Cavalier) and Bramble and although they are not best friends they get on pretty well and play together and they know the boundaries. They never steal each others food or have to defend it because they know where they both get fed. They know where they sleep and are never left alone together for any length of time due to the difference in size more than anything. They both know not to chase the cats etc. Are these the sorts of things you are talking about?

I am mystified as to how all the breeders over here have numerous chows in and around their houses and the dogs are still in beautiful condition for showing etc. Brambles pedigree also goes back four generations with no inbreeding and a gentler nature would be hard to find. But I know that that is not necessarilly how she would behave towards another b-tch. I am going to consult the breeders to see what they say too. I really appreciate all your inputs.

One last question - are all female dogs like that or is it a chow thing?

[sweetpea]

I agree with Jonathan, you have to be able to diffuse the situation before it happens. I learned the signs only after fights broke out. Now its just second nature to constantly be aware of how Gracie is feeling. Paying close attention to her body language and reacting before the fight happens. This is just my experience with my two. My next one will be a male when I add to our pack, BUT given the fact that I tend to prefer females, I'm pretty sure I'd do two females again in the future.

[Mailie's Mom]

The breeder I bought Louie from did not give me the option of a buying a female. When I told her I currently have a female, she said then you want a boy. I told her I wanted a female and she said NO. She explained to me why it would not be a good idea and warned me of all the issues (same as what everybody else has posted) and reminded me that I have kids. I talked to many breeders and they pretty much said the same thing. I did talk to a "back yard breeder" and she basically told me to send her the money and she will send me the dog (a female). I thought about it long and hard and needless to say, I took the advice and got a male. Boy am I glad I did! Louie has truly stolen my heart!

[Victory]

I think too, that a lot of us here have rescues and a rescued chow often has issues in regards to behavior and fitting in already. I can tell by Firesongs behaviors when I got her at a year old, that she had been left in a backyard with a group of dogs and pretty much ignored. She was and is a very sweet girl, but she suffered from a lack of training and attention, she was under weight to the point of having very thin fur, there was a lack of socialization with people and inexperience with new situations and things. The worst was that she was food aggressive with other dogs, if I had had another female or an intolerant male I would have had a BIG problem and likely a very injured girl, (being only 30lbs at the time, she would have recieved the worst of any confrontation). But Darkwind was a very gentle male who was very tolerant of everything and everybody and simply ignored her snarling at meal times which let me establish boundaries for her without fear of having to break up a fight.

It took a month of me standing between the two of them during meal times and directing her back to her own bowl for her to understand that she didn't have to protect her food or treats from him and that she would have plenty of food to eat. Once she got understood that, it was a lot easier to work with her on other issues. I also feel that sometimes the issues arise from the fact that here in the US we often remove puppies way too early from their dams and sibs leaving them without the proper tools to know how to fit into a pack correctly.

Also as Jonathon says, the leadership provided by the human(s) is very important. Melanie in Alaska only has females, two GSD's and two Chows at the moment, and they all get along fine, but then she is a very experienced dog person and establishes the fact that she's the ultimate authority in all things very quickly so her dogs know their places and know that the final word is hers and hers alone. Part of this is recognizing who the beta dog is, (beta to your alpha) and who is the omega, and when that dynamic changes. What I'm talking about is like this; at the moment Firesong is beta to me, and Dreamdancer is omega, but that order will most likely change within the next 2-3 years. Firesong is seven and Dreamdancer will be 3 in July. Already Firesong is backing away from some of her more stringent guarding around the house, like right now she's relaxing at my feet, while Dreamdancer is guarding the front door. If I try and keep her in the posistion of beta when it's time for it too change there will be problems. It's a part of having them to recognize and accept these changes in hiarchy.

[kingalls]

I have heard that 2 females of any breed have more issues than 2 males - again that is only "what I have heard" - Milly & Mabel are fine examples of beautiful sisters getting along with one another. There are others on this site, as well.
We decided early on that Shiloh's companion would be of the oppostite "s/x".

[vicster605]

I think two females of any breed could have issues with each other, not just Chows. And Jonathan is right that it does depend on the personality of the Chow. Keeping in mind as Victory said......CHANGE does happen such as the case here with puberty. Being experienced with this is something you either are are aren't. I wasn't but now after 2 yrs?? I am alot more experienced with MY TWO anyway, I know them and their personalities, their body language and what does and doesn't work here LOL I learned all of this the HARD WAY.....with lots of education going on (on my part), thanks to help from Melanie and Lou and others on this site.......problem is you never know when change can happen and what exactly it is that changes.....puberty, illness, a look, old age etc. especially with a puppy.....you won't know until they are adults. Right???
I say if unexperienced........Don't take a chance. I can't imagine the Chows over the pond being that much different from the ones here???

[JasonandNat]

Well for all the wonder our 2 have brought us, the food thing started a few months ago (they are 19mths now). Both have lots of food, but both are alphas. FengHuang will not back down for anything or anyone and she's half her brother ShenLung's size and weight, feels much bigger. He is having a very hard time accepting her as top dog when dinner is served and goes on the offensive which she is waiting for and antagonizing him to do. Two weeks ago she got ahold of his muzzle and gave him a good piercing. She got a scar on her lower lip. She turns into a small version of a great white shark in a feeding frenzy. Luckily we are still top alphas and they don't dare involve us, but it is a lot to pry them from each other. We're pulling and they are still going at it. Once we get them calm, they are all kissy kissy licking each other and acting sheepish. It's hard to see them like this with each other, almost wish it was with other dogs, but none really have any inclination to be aggressive with them. Most actually seem to want to run away. This is the only area we see aggression of any kind and we are working hard at resolving it. Only about food/dinner time, not treats, sometimes a bone/chewtoy but that usually is more rough play than aggression. So I guess it not just same *Censored Word*, although the breeder had mentioned issues with same *Censored Word* - ha!

[Sirchow]

Thank you everyone for your input. It is greatly appreciated and I am going to do some more thinking and not rush into any situation that I can't get out of. Alfie and Bramble are equal in status ansd seem happy for that to be the case - one slightly more beta than the other on different issues but there is 99% respect for each other so maybe it would be silly to change the dynamics at all. Thanks guys

[JasonandNat]

Well we thought we would update this thread although as we mentioned above it isn't a same *Censored Word* issue for us.

FengHuang has gotten calmer and doesn't provoke Shenlung as much, but she still doesn't take any lip either. With a lot of patience we have resolved the dominance issue and he has grudgingly accepted he is not going to get to the top. He will still half heartedly take a snap at her, maybe even a few in succession now and again, but doesn't push it.

We spent alot of time trying different things, eventually we fed her first in the washroom and tried to get him to eat in the kitchen. He just had a rough time accepting her being first or maybe getting something extra. It slowly worked out we could leave the bathromm door open while she eats. He paces and often yipes a couple times, she totally ignores him. Then when she's done he runs in for any scraps, then races back to his bowl and scarfs it down. That is also a new thing for him as he has been a fussy eater. She can now walk right up beside him while he is chowing down and drink from the water bowl without incident.

They also are much easier to control verbally now when they do get a little rough, he stops and starts licking her face, it is rather funny.

He has however started to look for new subordinates on walks, which has been easy as almost every dog we come across is at least somewhat unsure as to what a chow is. He isn't agressive, but does a few little things to show it's his turf. Kinda funny as FengHuang spots more than any male as she lays claim to everywhere she goes.

So all is well again for now and I hope others resolve their turf wars!

[Mika&Suki]

Hi Siriol,

I just noticed this thread. As you probably know, I have 2 females and I have to say that they are the best of friends. They have silly little arguments now and again over toys, or spiders (?), or basically anything that Suki decides she wants to own!! But we seem to have been quite lucky so far in that it's only ever playful arguments. They don't sleep together, and they don't tend to stay in the same room as eachother on an evening as Mika prefers being in the lounge with us and Suki prefers to lay outside in the garden, but during the day they play together ALL day long! They're always chasing eachother and playing tug-o-war with their toys, and Mika spends a lot of time cleaning Suki's eyes and ears for her. My girls are still both quite young though.....Mika being 18 months old and Suki being 15 months. I do hope that I never have any problems, as like other people on here I really don't know what I would do.

I think after reading all of the other comments, I would say if you were to get another chow then you should probably opt for a male. I don't know of any people who have had trouble when they've had a male and a female living together, only same s-x chows.

I do think it's a fabulous idea to get Bramble a friend though! There's nothing cuter than watching 2 chows playing together, and I do feel better about leaving them in the house together as I hated the idea of leaving Mika and her being lonely. That was our main reason for getting another chow.....to keep Mika company when we weren't there.

Nicki

[Sirchow]

Thank you Nicki for that. Funny I was just getting round to sending you a PM to ask you about this issue and there was the answere without me even having to! Are your two both speyed. Because I don't know whether that makes a difference but I imagine it does. I know of a few pairs of females in the UK that all get on so I don't know if our chows are a bit more amenable or not.

[Mika&Suki]

I must be psychic!

Neither girls have been spayed yet. We're not sure whether to breed them or not, and would rather wait a while to make sure that they don't have any major health problems. We'd like to breed as we really want another chow to add to our little family. Also, we're not sure whether to show Suki or not. I think we'd like to try but neither of us has the time at the moment as my partner works every weekend and he's the one who would be in the ring with them!

I would definitely spay them if we had any problems though, as I know this can calm them down and make them more placid. Is Bramble spayed?

I think you're right about UK chows. They do have such lovely temperaments if you go to the right breeders, and I know lots of breeders that keep 'intact' females together in their house and have had no problems at all, even with males around. Mika's breeder keeps 8 chows in her house all together and only separates them when a female is in season.

[lola chow]

Nicki remember i am on your list xxx

[Judy Fox]

I think you are right about the UK chows.
As I have said before, when we travelled over to Yorkshire to bring Mabel home, all the chow chows there were intact and they all got on together.

[Sirchow]

Well I know there are a lot of chows in homes in the US but over here it is different and I also want to breed chows at some point and that is why I wanted to know about two females. A neutered male would not be an awful lot of use to me

Bramble is not speyed at the moment and I am not in a hurry to do so as I think they benefit from late Speying anyway, developementally wise. I have half an eye on a litter of pups coming up soon but I keep thinking that Bramble and Alfie get on so well most of the time I am not sure if it is fair to him given that he is such a small dog to bring another bumbling chow into his life to torment him. So the jury is still out on this issue.

[Coco Chow]

Chows are calm dogs, what would be unfair would be to bring another Cavalier in Bramble's life I'd say!

[Sirchow]

I may steal that line Elodie. Two Alfies would kill me