I have a confession to make

[cleopatra20043]

I really love this site and for that reason I have not been posting much because of a stupid mistake that I myself am responsible for. Those of you who do know me know that I have had my own financial issues and I don't in any way want what I am getting ready to tell you be a "reason"...ok with that being said since I have distanced myself from the site allready I guess I really have nothing to lose by admiting my mistake, so here goes. Chen and Cai Li had a litter almost a year ago, they had 7 beautifull puppies ( one red, two blue, one black and 3 cream) and despite what a few on here will say it was NOT intentional breeding in any way!! I know that I expressed interest in breeding the two of them when I first joined but after learning about Chen's health issues it was not going to happen despite their age (which is another problem) Anyway, how it happened was my husband and I were arguing one night and I didn't get to sleep until about 3am and I had to be up by 6am and I knew that Cai Li was in heat and we were keeping them seperated, well my fault completely but after no sleep really I let them both out in the back yard in the morning as is usual and it took seconds for them to tie and I knew at that point it was over. Well after taking Cai Li to the vet and the pregnancy test was negative I thought I was in the clear, not so (obviously) either way I knew no matter what the vet told me that she was having puppies so hubby and I built a whelping box and I marked the date and knew when to expect. I set up her whelping box in a seperate bedroom and slept with her for about a week and a half to the upcoming date so that I could be there for her if anything went wrong. I didn't sleep but maybe an hour that night she actually gave birth, I assumed that there would be about 4 or so puppies but no she delivered 7 very healthy puppies! In the mean time I might add I was allready searching for good chow parents and had some wonderfull help from many sources including Carla who was there for me alot durring the whole pregnancy, I also had the breeder of Cai Li and the breeder of Cai Li's mother and also a long time breeder of GSD's that she actually imports from germany. I had a lot of help and I am eternally greatfull to those that did. To be quite honest Fozzie is one of my pupps and I miss him dearly, I also want to say that I did make everyone sign a contract with every pupp and I am in touch with all of the chow parents and I couldn't have asked for better ones. Minus the one that I made a poor judgement on, my brother in law. We allowed my brother in law to take the only red pup that we had (first one out of the whelping box, first one down the stairs, first one up the stairs, first one to figure out the doggie door) we wanted to keep him in the family because he was special to us. I gave my brother in law the whole speach about how he is to come back to us if there was ANY reason that he could not keep him but he did not listen to me no matter how I pressed it. Anyway long story short, he (Shao) ended up back at home with us after my brother in law passed him around to 4 other homes before giving him back and after that I didn't have the heart to re-home him again so he is a permanant addition to our family. When he returned him he had some major behaviour issues but we have worked those out and to think that he is only 8mos old.
OK so let the beating begin, I want to be part of this community again and thought that I had to own up to my mistakes to do so.

[cleopatra20043]

I also want to add that Cai Li and Chen have both been fixed since so there are no more unexpected litters

[bubba]

i hope the chow puppies are healthy and well loved..

you are so good to get such a large litter and not lose any.. i wish i was as good as you

michael

[cleopatra20043]

Thank you Michael for your kind words but this is not something that I am proud of, allthough I am proud to know that even though it was an accidential litter they all found wonderfull homes and are VERY healthy see Mr. Fozzie bear, he is one of my pupps and at 7mos weighed 62lbs. It's kind of odd to me because the parents are much smaller than any of the pupps minus what would have been called the "runt" (Mai Li Wei Shi Kong is her officail name, the new parents named her from both the mother and fathers last names) Mai Li, last I heard weighed 45lbs, but she was allways a daintly lil pup. I have pictures of all of them before and since they have gone to their new homes and I would be happy to share once I get past what I know is coming to me and well deserved.

Julia

[Mia]

I think you handled everything beautifully. I don't know too much about breeding, but accidents happen, and I think you did the best thing you could and I applaud you.

Nothing at all to be ashamed of - in fact, I think you can be proud of all the hard work you did to make sure that all the pups were given a beautiful beginning.

Cheers to you!

[KathrynH]

Hi Julia! Welcome back! I'm glad you were able to find good homes for all of them!

[CoraP.]

I have no problem understanding what happened. Life is full of surprises and the unexpected. When the pups were born, you did the best you could for them (and that is a lot of pups!). I don't think anyone here would fault you for that. Welcome back!

[kingalls]

Sounds like you have taken full responsibility and found them good homes - that was important! That certainly was a large litter.
Can't wait to see pictures.

[Jeff&Peks]

I don't understand the confession and quilt feelings, your Chows had puppies, you found homes with contracts, got one back and kept him, and? what's the confession and quilt part?, did you kill your husband bury him in the backyard and now your having an affair with a married guy with six kids, his wife is pregnant with twins and the family is Mormon. I didn't read the whole thread so must have missed the husband and quilt part.

[IliamnasQuest]

Well, I think that Julia SHOULD be ashamed of what she allowed to happen. She allowed an untested young bitch (LESS than a year old, I believe - a post she made in Nov. 2007 said Cai Li was six months old - if she had a litter almost a year ago, that would put her at only 7-8 months of age!) to be bred. Accidental or not, it was a really irresponsible thing to do.

On top of that, the bitch was bred to a male who has been diagnosed with a luxating patella - a very genetic disease that cripples and causes severe pain. Her male was bad enough that they were talking about surgery. These genes should NEVER have been passed on.

The responsible thing to do would have been to have her bitch in to the vet's immediately after she saw them tie, and to get a mismate shot if she felt she didn't want to spay her that young. OR to wait until she was out of heat and have her spayed immediately. The litter should not have been born. While they may appear healthy now, the likelihood is that some of these pups (maybe all) will end up with patella problems and possibly worse. And now there are seven more intact chows out there, carrying these unhealthy genes, and who knows how many of these new chow owners will also have "accidental" litters? After all, they came from an accidental litter so it must be okay.

I know that she said she had a pregnancy test done, but I'm pretty sure that pregnancy tests can't be done until 22 days into gestation (unless there's something new that isn't showing up on the market yet). So it was well beyond the point of a mismate shot (something that we used to use frequently with sled dog teams, unfortunately - some risks of side effects but mostly only if you plan to breed later on). The spay could still have been done as soon as she was out of heat (whether they knew she was pregnant or not) and that would have solved the problem of producing more BYB chows.

So while forgiveness is noble, and Julia did a tough thing coming here and telling us what happened - I think it's very important that people not just sweep this under the rug and make it seem as if it is all okay. Anyone popping into this forum and reading this topic needs to see that having this litter was a HUGE mistake and something completely detrimental to the breed. It was wrong, and forgiveness for Julia will not help those pups who will likely be in pain one of these days. People need to be seriously committed to keeping their intact females from becoming pregnant, and if you have an intact bitch and an intact male in the same household, you're asking for problems.

I'm not ragging on Julia, just stating the facts so that people are aware and don't take this lightly. Julia seems pretty conscious of what she's done and that it wasn't a good thing. I think she could have been more responsible after the dogs bred but what's done is done. I pray that the pups remain healthy and don't end up with luxating patellas. And I hope that others reading this will take heed and make sure that their intact females are well confined and will consider spaying BEFORE any accidents happen.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

[Jeff&Peks]

I just got off the phone with someone lecturing me "There is no such thing as a perfect world, sh^t happens"..In this case Sh^t happened she did what she could and the best she could to take care of her screw-up. Most wouldn't have gone as far as her to make sure the puppies atleast found good homes and had contracts signed, most would have been down at the Wal-mart parking lot selling the puppies for Wal-mart Christmas gifts. Normally it would be me thats jumping all over the person for what she did but now that I just found out Pekoe has been pooping in the back corner of the yard I can see there is no perfect world and in Pekoe's case Sh^t does happen.

[CoraP.]

Yes, it does. We all do the best we can and we all know the dangers of breeding irresponsibly. Maybe Julia did not know about the mismate shot (I know I never heard about it!). No one here says it's o.k., but when something happens, we all do what we are capable of doing. I respect all of Melanie's experience and knowledge, she certainly knows what she is talking about. What's done is done, and we can only hope for the best for all of the puppies. I imagine the families who adopted them aren't breeders and don't plan on breeding!

[cleopatra20043]

Thank you to everyone that has posted kind responses and I do agree (soemwhat) with Melanie. Also just so you know I did go a little above the "standard" contract because I did know about Chen's health issues, I made sure to tell any potential chow parents of the condition AND made them sign the contract that there was no breeding allowed, the space on their papers was marked as non breedable AND I also took an extra step with the health issues by putting in my contract that if ANY of the pupps end up with ANY genetic issues I would pay for half of the expenses for whatever is needed to alleviate the problem up to 2yrs of age. No I am not excusing what happened but I never heard of that mismatch shot, had that been the case I surely would have done that. I did not want to have Cai Li spayed that young and to be quite honest I don't believe in "abortion" in any case at the point that I knew for sure she was pregnant the best I could do is find good homes for the pupps and do right by them and the new owners. Again I'm not excusing what happened, and yes it was completely my fault, call it lack of sleep or whatever but it WAS my fault and I have never denied that and won't ever. Oh and here are a few pics of the litter when they were about 6wks old and a couple from about 4wks, they grow so fast.

[cleopatra20043]

Oh and their names are: black puppy, Sampson...blue female, Mindy....blue male, Fozzie bear (I actually named him that before he went to Laura)....cream male1, Thumps (because he doesn't just lay down he plops and makes a thumping noise)....cream male2, Meng...red male, Shao (allthough my brother in law named him D.A. short for dumb a$$ I changed that immediatly) ... cream female, Mai Li (they wanted to name her after her mother but a little different and they actually gave her three names as we do our chows and they named her with both of the last names of chen and cai li which is wei shi and cong)

[jacqui]

Julia,
your babies are beautiful.it good that you let people know about their potenial health issues.and that they will be spayed and neutered.
and its great that everyone found a home.Lauras Fozzie is such a doll and what a big boy.
Welcome back and lets see some pictures of the pup you kept

[CoraP.]

Adorable babies!!

[Victory]

They are all beautiful. And while Melanie is right in what she said, things do happen beyond the control of us mere human mortals. What I hope anyone coming to this site and reading this thread will learn is to take FULL responsiblity for any thing regarding the chow(s) you own. Which you have done extremely well I must say.

So many people might have seen them tie and dropped the female off in the country or on a busy highway somewhere, never mind selling the pups in Wal-Mart's parking lot! I'm all for spaying/neutering but doing it too young can cause it's own health and behavior issues. I've said it before and I'll keep saying it, it's about RESPONSIBLITY in every sense of the word, if you have an intact bitch and she gets pregnant, then you have the responsiblity to see to her and her pups in the best way.

Of course the other side of this is that I wouldn't have Dreamdancer if something very similar hadn't have happened with his parents, he and his sibs came from a litter that was unplanned and turned over to Linda, Ann and Mike at West Texas chow rescue. Again, not condoning the unplanned breeding, but recognizing that the owners at least saw that the puppies were given the best chance for good lives with folks who will spoil them rotten and provide forever homes.

Here in the US of A we often are so geared to the quick and easy fix., (in the case of pets spaying/neutering as young as possible) that doing the right thing, the mature thing, the responsible thing when the quick and easy fix doesn't work or doesn't happen that many people don't even know what the right, mature and responsible thing is...I think this thread will educate people as to what that harder course should incompass.

Okay, off the soap box now.
like I said, beautiful puppies, and by the way, Firesong has the potential for luxating patella as well keeping her weight down giving her good exercise to keep the joint strong and healthy has so far avoided any problem, she'll be an active hyper nutty seven year-old girl in Feb.

[cleopatra20043]

Here is a pic I just took of Shao he is such a sweetheart and has such soulfull eyes allthough the pic is not the best I will post some more of our chow family in the photo section over the hollidays

[Jeff&Peks]

Here is a pic I just took of Shao he is such a sweetheart and has such soulfull eyes allthough the pic is not the best

Those yellow eyes are called pet eye, humans it's called red eye. It comes from the digital flash. TJordan and I have been doing scientific studies on Pet eye this past week. Our studies have found either take the picture at a differant angle not straight into the eye's, use a differant flash source or its time to learn how to use your photo editors.

We should have a crafts and pet photo section, not pictures but tips and tricks on Pet crafts and taking pictures.

[CoraP.]

Shao is very handsome! Yes, it would be nice to be able to get that darn "glow" out of their pretty eyes!

[wallacethegreat]

I haven't posted for a while, but now that Julia has come forward about her unexpected litter, I can now tell you all that Fozzie is my baby Chow that I adopted from Julia after I lost Wally in late January and my beloved Berkley in August after his dramatic rescue on May 5th (thank you again, Jeff.)
I never metioned where I got Fozzie and promised Julia I wouldn't say anything on the group because she was afraid she'd get blasted by all those who evidently have never made a mistake in their lives.
After losing my old Chow boy Oliver Wallace, and then Berkley just 3 months after he came here with me, I wanted another Chow.
Let me say that the whole thing with Julia and my Fozzie was more than coincidental. I was looking for another black Chow boy and started doing searches all over. I found an ad on Craig's List in Pueblo CO and emailed about the pups that were available.
It turned out that Julia was already a long-time member of the group and knew Wally and Berkley's stories. And yes, she did have two pups left. No black, but a blue, a Chow color which I had never seen in person.
Many of us spoke/wrote here about who Wally and Berks would send. It was more than just a coincidence that Julia was a group member and knew about my grief. It was more than a coincidence that Fozzie's March 27th birthday was the same as an Arab filly's I lost to a horrible accident many years ago.
Julia and I talked by phone several times, particularly about any potential health issues about which she was extraordinarily open and honest. She sent me photos of both parents, told me about Fozzie's daddy's luxating patella, but no entropian in either dam or sire. My broken and grieving heart decided that if I could take in poor, rescued 8 year-old Berkley who died of a massive chest tumor in short order, I could certainly take my chances with a 5 month-old pup that I knew everything about from Julia.
I DO believe that Wally and Berks sent Fozzie to me. He is everything I hoped he would be, and more.
I suppose my post today is to ask for your understanding in that "accidental" litter. Because of that, I have my fabulous Foz and Julia was very painstaking about who the other pups went to.
I'm SO glad she's back with the group again. Accidents DO happen and there shouldn't be any guilt about what happened. She did everything to make it right. And, some of us, myself included, are lucky enough to have one of those pups.
So, here are some updated pics of my little Foz-Man taken last week. His health is excellent and he now weighs (as of this past Saturday at the vet's office) 69 pounds at just 8-1/2 months! He is healthy, loving, well-behaved, knows good tricks now, and is just the best boy! (However, he is entering his bratty teenage time, but is always a respectful and affectionate little man. Really smart, too.)
I'm not condoning letting pups have litters of pups, but I am thankful to have one of them and I would ask that all of you take it easy on Julia. She really did the best she could during some very rough personal times.
Thank you, Julia for my Fozzie Man!

[wallacethegreat]

Wow...it took me more than a half-hour to post these pics. go figure, but anyway...this is my big Fozzie Bear...

[CoraP.]

Wow, Fozzie looks great! He is a big boy, isn't he??! I believe there is a reason for everything - if it hadn't been for this "mistake", you wouldn't have Fozzie. It sounds like he is a wonderful boy. Thanks for the pictures and the update!

[jacqui]

Fozzie is a big boy.I love big boys he is so beautiful.
and as Cora said things happen for a reason.and yes,I believe its fate

[wallacethegreat]

Oh...and one more thing. I had Fozzie neutered on his 6-month birthday, along with a very thorough physical exam focusing on Chow-specific health issues, like entropian and crappy knees. (My vet is becoming very knowledgable about Chows since she's treated three of mine now in rapid succession.) In addition, just to back up what Julia said, Fozzie's AKC registration papers stated that he was not breedable. I had never intended to do that anyway...I rescue dogs, I don't breed MORE of them. In addition, I'm sure that Julia made sure that all the papers of the other 6 pups reiterated the same thing---not breedable. I must assume this is because of the potential for luxating patellas. At any rate, she was very honest with me about all of this and my choice to take Foz was purely mine. Since I have no children, my dogs ARE my children and if ANY of them have health issues, they're dealt with immediately. That would include any future patella issues.
Personally knowing Julia now, I'm sure she would have insisted that all the pups be neutered or spayed at six months of age, if not sooner in light of what happened with her own male and female. I'm sure she has no interest in being a BYB...it was just a mistake.