Help. I think I need to get rid of my Chow.

[weenis]

We have an 8 month old female Chow Chow named "Zoe"

Yesterday, she got REALLY pissed off at our other dog (they usually get along great) and was really getting crazy. I took Zoe and put her on her back to "submit". Kind of like what the dog whisperer does. Then when she's relaxed and fully submissive, I'll let her up. Well when i submitted her yesterday, she attacked me. I have made sure in raising her that she's not ever touched in any harmful manner, so the following may disturb some of you.

When she attacked me, she was very... the only word that comes to mind is... ferrel. She bit me in the arm, and was kicking with all feet. I put her in a type of "rear *Censored Word* choke". I grabbed her by the neck and held the rest of her body with my legs. I didn't harm her in any way, but I did make her lay down on her back to finish the submission. After i submitted her, she made it apparent that I was the dominant "dog" in the situation. If she put her head up, i would just have to look at her and tell her to get back down and she would.

I know Zoe and my other dog might have just been doing normal dog stuff, but even if i might have been wrong in intervening... i find her backlash very unsettling. I have a 2 year old son, and a baby due in January.

Looking for all input here... need some help.

EDIT:

This is the first time she's resisted being submitted, otherwise, she easily lays down, relaxes, and alters her behavior accordingly. She's been such a good dog, it's been literally 2-3 months since she's been naughty.

[fillyok]

I don't know if I can be of any help, but maybe someone will be able to if you answer a few more questions. Is Zoe spayed? If not, could Zoe be in season? Is your other dog a male or female? How did Zoe act after this altercation? Have there been any changes in Zoe's lifestyle (new house, visitors, etc)?

I'm not a big believer in the 'alpha roll" deal...never been in a situation to need it, I guess. My pack understands "knock it off" very well. I'm sure others will have recommendations for you. I hate to think you have to give Zoe up before you even try something. Good luck!

[chowfrnd88]

If you feel you do need a new home for your chow please follow Jonathan's advice and post in the chows needing a home section, the members will make sure you find a safe home for Zoe.

In the meantime, please, pleasee, please stop "alpha rolling" her. It is an outdated, dangerous technique. It can work because it instills fear where you have a relationship based on your dog being afraid of you, the other times it can cause them to fear bite, which is what happened here. It's actually a misnomer, it doesn't give you leadership, quite the opposite actually... it looks like you're fighting for position. A true leader is benevolent. Leaders in the animal kingdom cannot afford to be running around fighting, this can lead to death and that's no good! If you are willing to work with her, I would consider finding a certified applied animal behaviorist to work with you. Not any old behaviorist, but specifically a certified applied animal behaviorist. This is someone who has a phd in behavior and has been trained in behavior modification. Consider reading Cristine Dahl's Good Dog 101, Jean Donaldson's The Culture Clash and/or any of Patricia McConnell's books. Good luck and keep us posted.

[weenis]

I don't know if I can be of any help, but maybe someone will be able to if you answer a few more questions. Is Zoe spayed?

No, I had planned on having her eyes and hip displasia tested, and if everything was good, breeding her.

If not, could Zoe be in season?

That was 2 months ago.

Is your other dog a male or female?

Female. They love each other.

How did Zoe act after this altercation?

After she's submissive, I snap twice and say "Zoe come." and she comes and i pet her and sit with her. She did this as normal yesterday after the altercation. She was good with my other dog "Jaida" and also my wife and son. She was happy as a clam.

Have there been any changes in Zoe's lifestyle (new house, visitors, etc)?

There were actually visitors over when this whole thing happened. She's always good with visitors, but yesterday the particular visitors that were over have been in our life, and hers, since she was 8 weeks old. She is very good with the 2 people that were over, and continued to be after the altercation.

[chowfrnd88]

Oh yeah, and biting is context specific, you do not have to worry that since she bit you after you rolled her, she will now hurt any other members of your family or other people randomly. They don't think like that, they only defend when they have too. Again, it's too costly otherwise.

[Jeff&Peks]

First off quit using Dog whisperer tactics on a Chow, the Dog whisperer can't even train a Chow the guy is a quack he can't train any breed unless its sedated or forced into submission before the Show is tapped.

If your going use hard core Alpha training on a Chow then expect to get bit. Instead of getting rid of your Chow try reading up on the characteristics of a Chow and the ways of training a Chow Your Chow isn't acting any differant then any other Chow would when you use force and abuse. If your going to continue using Alpha force on your Chow then its better off being rehomed but Don't go out and get another Chow you will get the same response out of any chow when you start throwing it on the floor or man handling it.

Chows also play really rough so to you it might have looked like a fight or your other dog may have thought it was a fight then reacted to it. Also since your a believer in Alpha don't forget one of the dogs has to go for the top dog spot, your Chow is getting older it might be time for a change in command of the pack leader.

[weenis]

Oh yeah, and biting is context specific, you do not have to worry that since she bit you after you rolled her, she will now hurt any other members of your family or other people randomly. They don't think like that, they only defend when they have too. Again, it's too costly otherwise.

She bit me while i rolled her. She was responding to my actions with extreme aggression.

If your going use hard core Alpha training on a Chow then expect to get bit. Instead of getting rid of your Chow try reading up on the characteristics of a Chow and the ways of training a Chow Your Chow isn't acting any differant then any other Chow would when you use force and abuse. If your going to continue using Alpha force on your Chow then its better off being rehomed but Don't go out and get another Chow you will get the same response out of any chow when you start throwing it on the floor or man handling it.

I don't think i use it at "alpha training" as much as i do it for both punishment and i know she doesn't like it.

As a side note, i take offense to "force and abuse", the last thing i want to do is hurt my dog.

[weenis]

What I'm afraid of is having a dog that my son can pull it's leg wrong and the dog responds to my son the way Zoe responded to me.

[Wes Chow Chows]

Did you do this right after the incident with the other dog? When you say she bite you did she truely bite or was it a nip?
By a nip/bite did she draw blood? I can see her niping no chow likes being put on the back You should never try and dominate a chow as they will always rise to the challenge.

[chowfrnd88]

Did you get to read my first post in this thread? We may have cross-posted and you might not have seen my suggestions about the behaviorist (it's right after Fillyok's post).

That's why I cautioned against alpha rolling, it's not a form of discipline that is accdepted among todays prominent trainers who educated in animal bebahior. would again urge you to reconsuder using it. I doubt veyr much that she would bite your son for a leg pull, it's VERY different than an alpha roll, but like I said I'd have a qualified behaviorist assess the situation, they might be able to help you make a decision on what to do next.

[weenis]

Did you do this right after the incident with the other dog? When you say she bite you did she truely bite or was it a nip?
By a nip/bite did she draw blood? I can see her niping no chow likes being put on the back You should never try and dominate a chow as they will always rise to the challenge.

I wouldn't say she bit with full force what so ever. She lashed out and bit at my arm, and i pulled down and twisted out of the bite, it left me with a red mark/scratch on my arm.

[Laura]

You said the other dog is female. Were they actually fighting? It is quite common for same *Censored Word* to not get along IMO. She is not spayed so I'm sure hormones aren't helping and she is old enough now to be 'feeling her oats'.
As far as the alpha roll thing I find it cruel barbaric behavior and would expect to get bit. A dog should only be trained with positive reinforcement methods and/or by trained professionals who don't use barbaric methods. Listen to Special Darks mom...she is educated and knows of what she speaks.
As others suggested if you do decide to rehome her please let this site help by posting her on here so she can go to Chow experienced home and not to her death elsewhere.

[Jeff&Peks]

As a side note, i take offense to "force and abuse", the last thing i want to do is hurt my dog.

If someone tossed you on your back then held you down what would you call it?

The way I see training with any animal is you don't do anything to them that you wouldn't want done to you, If you don't like people sticking their hand in your face or pulling your dish away while you are eating or bothering you while you are sleeping then don't expect a Chow to like it either. . Treat your Chow like you would your kids if it makes your kid mad then it will most likely piss off your Chow.

Chows aren't allowed in Church so Chows don't turn the other cheek.

[Bob]

I tried the so called Alpha Roll on my Cindy Bear. I would never use it again. I got the feeling that it caused more fear and panic rather than submission. It may be ok for other breeds, but my Chows seems to react better to gentle and passive corrections.

Bob

[Wes Chow Chows]

This was not a Chow being mean I would not say you have a trust issue. I understand you issue with the baby coming. So here is what I did with my little one when she was born. Starting the day she is born bring home a new baby blanket place it on the floor spread out and have the dogs come in and allow then to smell it but not step on it. I did this everyday until she came home. When I brought her in I took the blanket into her room laid it out on the floor and placed her on it. Then called for the dog to come it and she walked in looked and promtly placed herself between the little one and anyone else. This was not a chow but worse in my ideas a Dalmation. Agian I dont think you have a trust issue I would not roll her. I am not sure if they were "fighting" if this was the case then they would never go back together. If it was a "alpha" sitiuation then it will happen again until they come to the understanding of who is alpha. I have a true Alpha female. She can go with any male and any submissive female but I can not even put her in a kennel next to another non-submissive female or she would fight to the death.

[weenis]

I've been thinking a lot about it today, and I've realized i shouldn't have stepped in between the two dogs. I honestly know they care for each other, and that they wouldn't kill one another.

As a side note, i take offense to "force and abuse", the last thing i want to do is hurt my dog.

If someone tossed you on your back then held you down what would you call it?

The way I see training with any animal is you don't do anything to them that you wouldn't want done to you, If you don't like people sticking their hand in your face or pulling your dish away while you are eating or bothering you while you are sleeping then don't expect a Chow to like it either. . Treat your Chow like you would your kids if it makes your kid mad then it will most likely piss off your Chow.

As a kid, if i talked back, i got a hand to the face.

If tossing me on my back and holding me down was an effective punishment for my actions, as much as i don't like it, it's for my own good.

I'm not condoning hitting animals as punishment, or saying that submitting chows is the way to go. I really am thinking that a chow is not a breed you can submit to their back.

[Red Dragon]

Oh yeah, and biting is context specific, you do not have to worry that since she bit you after you rolled her, she will now hurt any other members of your family or other people randomly. They don't think like that, they only defend when they have too. Again, it's too costly otherwise.

She bit me while i rolled her. She was responding to my actions with extreme aggression.

If your going use hard core Alpha training on a Chow then expect to get bit. Instead of getting rid of your Chow try reading up on the characteristics of a Chow and the ways of training a Chow Your Chow isn't acting any differant then any other Chow would when you use force and abuse. If your going to continue using Alpha force on your Chow then its better off being rehomed but Don't go out and get another Chow you will get the same response out of any chow when you start throwing it on the floor or man handling it.

I don't think i use it at "alpha training" as much as i do it for both punishment and i know she doesn't like it.

As a side note, i take offense to "force and abuse", the last thing i want to do is hurt my dog.

She most likely thought she had gained the role as alpha in the home, and when you rolled her she bit you as a result. Rolling a dog is an alpha technique, and if you roll a dog that thinks it's alpha you better be prepared for a serious fight, which it sounds like you got.

Breeding Chows is nothing to be taken lightly either, this breed has gone through some really bad periods of breeding due to popularity, and dogs with bad temperaments were bred alot. Only dogs with good temperaments and stable temperaments should be used for breeding, otherwise the cycle continues. If you are going to breed these dogs you really need to buy from breeders that have dogs that are worthy of being bred. Just as you fear for your child, the next person will have to fear for their children, or others, that is not how it should be.

[Red Dragon]

I've been thinking a lot about it today, and I've realized i shouldn't have stepped in between the two dogs. I honestly know they care for each other, and that they wouldn't kill one another.

As a side note, i take offense to "force and abuse", the last thing i want to do is hurt my dog.

If someone tossed you on your back then held you down what would you call it?

The way I see training with any animal is you don't do anything to them that you wouldn't want done to you, If you don't like people sticking their hand in your face or pulling your dish away while you are eating or bothering you while you are sleeping then don't expect a Chow to like it either. . Treat your Chow like you would your kids if it makes your kid mad then it will most likely piss off your Chow.

As a kid, if i talked back, i got a hand to the face.

If tossing me on my back and holding me down was an effective punishment for my actions, as much as i don't like it, it's for my own good.

I'm not condoning hitting animals as punishment, or saying that submitting chows is the way to go. I really am thinking that a chow is not a breed you can submit to their back.

Better rethink that one, usually with females it will start out as a few spats, then they get serious, and some of them will fight to the death if you don't stop them. If you stepped in the middle of an ongoing serious fight and rolled the dog, that is why you were bitten. You have to be extremely careful breaking up a serious fight between two Chows, they will bite just about anything or anyone when they get worked up.

[weenis]

Breeding Chows is nothing to be taken lightly either, this breed has gone through some really bad periods of breeding due to popularity, and dogs with bad temperaments were bred alot. Only dogs with good temperaments and stable temperaments should be used for breeding, otherwise the cycle continues. If you are going to breed these dogs you really need to buy from breeders that have dogs that are worthy of being bred. Just as you fear for your child, the next person will have to fear for their children, or others, that is not how it should be.

Agreed. If my wife and I decide to keep her, we are going to have her spayed. If she doesn't have the proper temperament, having good eyes and good hips will just make a very healthy bad tempered chow.

[vicster605]

My 2 females loved each other until puberty and started fighting when the younger one turned 7-8 mos old. May be a puberty thing so like Sam said be careful. I would spay both females at the same time if given it to do over.
Good Luck!!!

[Jeff&Peks]

Now that you have to decide if you want to keep an 8 month old puppy what made you get a Chow in the first place, Cute fluffy puppy? It dosn't sound like you spent to much time with breed selection.

[momtobear]

When It comes to training a chow I have no Idea. Bear was about three when I rescued him. A Year or so later I had a baby. Before she came home, My husband brought a blanket that she had been placed in home to bear. We did this so he would get use to the smell of her and get him to understand that a new person was coming into the family. He was very protective over her. It was so cute the way he would come get me whenever she started crying.

[weenis]

Cute fluffy puppy? It dosn't sound like you spent to much time with breed selection.

I wanted a watch dog, a smart dog, and a medium to large sized one. Being strong headed myself, this looked like the perfect breed.

And still, as a breed i love chows.

The one thing i've gone against in all my research about chows is, i did get a dog from a "back-yard" breeder. Full papers and AKC reg'd, but i know the mother wasn't that great of a dog.

"Cute fluffy puppy?"

Nope.

[Jeff&Peks]

I wanted a watch dog, a smart dog, and a medium to large sized one. Being strong headed myself, this looked like the perfect breed.

And still, as a breed i love chows.

The one thing i've gone against in all my research about chows is, i did get a dog from a "back-yard" breeder. Full papers and AKC reg'd, but i know the mother wasn't that great of a dog.

"Cute fluffy puppy?"

Nope.

You did get the perfect breed and you got exacty what you wanted...I'm not trying to be hard on you I'm just trying to keep the Chow in its home, Your Chow is to young to be joining the homeless Chow circuit and wind up being euthanized before it reaches a year old. Once your Chow leaves your home no matter how good you think the new owners may be there's a slim chance it will live its full life with out winding up in a shelter being euthed. Shelters drop Chows faster then they can reach thier cells only because most shelters have the opinion a dog is a dog and don't understand Chows.

As for temperament I don't believe in that backyard breeder stuff, physical problems maybe but I have had enough rescues straight out of shelters, the worst of the worst and been around enough Chows and hard core guard dogs to blow that bad breeder temperament theory all to hell. Its all in the owner, Your Chow didn't act any differently then any other chow would have under the circumstance. One nip or bite, even a couple of nips or bites does not make a Chow viscous or mean, as long as your Chow is handled and treated properly it will be the best friend your kids have ever had but your kids have to be taught proper behavior around a Chow or any breed, my 6 year old has known since crawling age proper behavior around Chows, my Chow hates kids or anyone that comes near her except for me and immediate family yet she is around kids everyday in the park and kids running in and out of the house all day (thank god school started) she just goes off by herself and ignores them and all the noise.... you did get a strong willed stubborn breed that won't put up with being handled rough. If you decide to keep her its time to think Chow and forget all the dog reading you have done.

[chow fancier]

My first two chows were pups when they came to me; the two I have now are rescues that came to me as adults.

I have never alpha rolled a chow and wouldn't recommend it. I think the alpha roll is a technique that has no scientific basis, unless the intention is to cause fear and a fight/flight response.

In your position, I would read up on certified animal behaviorist's recommended techniques. Chowfrnd88 (aka Special Dark's Mom) offered you the names of some excellant authors. These are techniques based on scientific evidence and they do work. I have had the best luck with NILIF (nothing in life is free), making the chows work for anything they want. A simple sit will do, but it establishes that you are in control of all good things (food, walks, pets, etc).

I also made great progress with Cinder (my current rescue girl) by taking her through obedience classes. Boy have those changed in the last twenty years. No more choke collars, much less aggression required on the part of the owner/handler. She even earned her CGC (Canine Good Citizen) being the first Chow to do so at my local dog club. She thought class was fun and we really bonded during the process as well. And she will always come when called (admittedly I have never tried to call her when she was chasing a squirrel, rabbit or chipmunk not wanting to set us up for failure) something at which my other chows have never excelled.

As for the two female dogs in the same household, that can be a problem. There are several threads on here that address the issues with same gender dogs in the same household. I can add that I have scars from separating two females that grew up together and were best buddies most of the time. I think Larry offered a good technique for separating them: pick up the back legs off the ground, then they can not get leverage to continue the fight.

Lastly, if you are not willing to modify your techniques for this chowling, then rehoming her would be the kindest solution for both of you.