Help. I think I need to get rid of my Chow.

[jacqui]

Jeff is right about a Chow not being like other dogs as far as kids pulling their tail or ears.you need to teach kids to be respectful of them.most Chows are fine around kids but you need to teach kids how to treat animals.
I do not have children but all my chows have been tolerant of children.we have tons of kids in the neighborhood and I let them pat them.but once a little girl came running out of no where and put her arms around Kais neck and he did snap at her.he did not want to hurt her but just warn her.
I'm sure Zoe is a sweet girl and I hope with some help you will keep her.
keep us posted

[weenis]

Another first.

I brush Zoe about once or twice a week, she always likes it, and I've done the same thing since we first got her.

Today, it started out the same way, i'd have her sit and i'd sit behind her and do her face and mane and back, then i'd have her lay on one side, and then i'll have her roll over. The last part i'll have her stand, and i will do her tail and butt.

Today when i tried to have her stand at the end of the brushing, she snarled at me and snapped at me. These signs of aggression are really not ordinary from her. She's always been very good about being brushed or bathed.

She'd never done this before, but in the past when she would act up, i'd roll her on her back, and then let her be there for a while till she was completely submissive, dog whisperer style. But since reading some of the replies, what should my proper response be? She shouldn't be allowed to do, or get away with, this type of behavior.

Her whole attitude and demeanor has changed in a matter of the last 2 weeks or so.

[Red Dragon]

You need to make sure she didn't come back in heat, they can be really testy around that time, and they don't like people messing with their rears if they are, or some don't anyway. Also make sure she didn't get injured in the fight, if she has an injury she may not want you messing with it.

I can't tell you what to do, because I can't see what is going on. I can tell you I have done the alpha roll on a few of my dogs, this site does not approve of it, so you will only get grief from the people for saying you did it, or do it. Some of these people have never had to deal with an unruley Chow either, so they have no idea what it's like.

Then you have the bird brains like Jeff that just think you are suppose to accept the fact that his dog attacks him and his family members, in my opinion that is unacceptable behaviour and is not tolerated in my home. Dogs with that kind of temperament don't get bred either.

[weenis]

that is unacceptable behaviour and is not tolerated in my home. Dogs with that kind of temperament don't get bred either.

Agreed. It's completely unacceptable. In human terms, if someone was lashing out like that, they get punched in the face. It's the consequences for their actions, after enough punches to the face, they quit lashing out...

How would you make the chow stop lashing out?

In all honesty, if a chow is going to lash out because of an alpha roll because they hate it so much, but will eventually stop lashing out, I don't mind. I don't mind getting bit, attacked, or scratched, as long as she becomes a good dog for it.

I just want to use whatever method is effective, and by effective, i mean not behaving unacceptably.

[pfordeb]

This is not my area of expertise, but you should know as a new person that there are so many different opinions on this site, you just have to pick and choose what works best for you and your dog. I am actually a behavior therapist for kids, but not so good about applying those principals to my dogs. Luckily we've been lucky that ours are well-behaved, especially around humans. In this instance, it does sound to me like hormones. Vicster had almost the exact situation happen with her dogs, as she mentioned.

I can certainly understand your concern with a young child and a baby on the way. I hope this issue gets resolved without having to give Zoe to someone else. And, even though you did get a chow for the right reasons, she certainly looks like a cute fluffy puppy in that picture.

[Jeff&Peks]

You need to make sure she didn't come back in heat, they can be really testy around that time, and they don't like people messing with their rears if they are, or some don't anyway. Also make sure she didn't get injured in the fight, if she has an injury she may not want you messing with it.

I can't tell you what to do, because I can't see what is going on. I can tell you I have done the alpha roll on a few of my dogs, this site does not approve of it, so you will only get grief from the people for saying you did it, or do it. Some of these people have never had to deal with an unruley Chow either, so they have no idea what it's like.

Then you have the bird brains like Jeff that just think you are suppose to accept the fact that his dog attacks him and his family members, in my opinion that is unacceptable behaviour and is not tolerated in my home. Dogs with that kind of temperament don't get bred either.

You also have to keep in mind Red dragon is a breeder, it doesn't matter what's happening with the Chow or how you get rid of the Chow to him its a potential sale. If you read back over the years you will see his opinion changes and will always agree with anyone thinking about dumping their Chow even killing it. He will also make things worse by putting idea's in your head trying to convince you your Chow was badly bread so you should have bought from him, just like he brought up bad breeding in this thread which had nothing to do with your question.

As for Alpha training the idea of the Alpha role was developed by Hitler and the Nazi party back during the war so unless your involved in dog fighting or attack dogs I wouldn't use it, This superior master stuff is a bunch of crap, must be why wild animal trianers don't use it they don't want to get killed...One of the supposed top canine specialist in the world believes in Alpha training he also says Chow are the stupidest breed there is and impossible to train (gee wonder why) so you can see where Red dragon is coming from, next he will be telling you to feed your family proplan. A breeder is the last person you want to be taking advice from unless you need advice on how to get rid of your Chow and where to buy next.

As I said all i'm trying to do is save your Chows home I have nothing to gain if you want to take advice fom red drgon more power to you and I pity your Chow. However he was right about your Chow possibly being in heat and not wanting to be bothered, SPCA offers free spaying and Neutering in some cities.

There is always a reason why a Chow or any dog bites and 99% of the time its brought on by human error and not taking the time to read about the breed they are adopting.

[Red Dragon]

that is unacceptable behaviour and is not tolerated in my home. Dogs with that kind of temperament don't get bred either.

Agreed. It's completely unacceptable. In human terms, if someone was lashing out like that, they get punched in the face. It's the consequences for their actions, after enough punches to the face, they quit lashing out...

How would you make the chow stop lashing out?

In all honesty, if a chow is going to lash out because of an alpha roll because they hate it so much, but will eventually stop lashing out, I don't mind. I don't mind getting bit, attacked, or scratched, as long as she becomes a good dog for it.

I just want to use whatever method is effective, and by effective, i mean not behaving unacceptably.

I can't really say what to do, it's so hard to make a judgement call on a dog without seeing it in person. Some dogs are very soft and doing an alpha roll would do damage to them mentally, they would probably become fearful of you. Some respond to just a raised tone of voice. Some are so dominant that it doesn't matter what you do to them, you won't break them.

There is one thing I can tell you for sure, if I was grooming one of my dogs and it lashed out like that and there was nothing wrong with it, it would have been upside down faster than it knew what happened.

People need to realize that these are animals, they are not humans. The bleeding heart liberals of this country have gone overboard in many respects where animals are concerned. There was a time that dog breeders culled heavily when they bred, that means that anything that was unacceptable was killed. Now you have just the opposite, you have people breeding anything and everything that they can get their hands on, and we have so many problems you can't even hardly list them all. Temperament is a close second to health in my book of breeding practices, and that means a stable temperament too, unstable dogs are just plain dangerous. Let the whinning begin!

[Red Dragon]

You need to make sure she didn't come back in heat, they can be really testy around that time, and they don't like people messing with their rears if they are, or some don't anyway. Also make sure she didn't get injured in the fight, if she has an injury she may not want you messing with it.

I can't tell you what to do, because I can't see what is going on. I can tell you I have done the alpha roll on a few of my dogs, this site does not approve of it, so you will only get grief from the people for saying you did it, or do it. Some of these people have never had to deal with an unruley Chow either, so they have no idea what it's like.

Then you have the bird brains like Jeff that just think you are suppose to accept the fact that his dog attacks him and his family members, in my opinion that is unacceptable behaviour and is not tolerated in my home. Dogs with that kind of temperament don't get bred either.

You also have to keep in mind Red dragon is a breeder, it doesn't matter what's happening with the Chow or how you get rid of the Chow to him its a potential sale. If you read back over the years you will see his opinion changes and will always agree with anyone thinking about dumping their Chow even killing it. He will also make things worse by putting idea's in your head trying to convince you your Chow was badly bread so you should have bought from him, just like he brought up bad breeding in this thread which had nothing to do with your question.

As for Alpha training the idea of the Alpha role was developed by Hitler and the Nazi party back during the war so unless your involved in dog fighting or attack dogs I wouldn't use it, This superior master stuff is a bunch of crap, must be why wild animal trianers don't use it they don't want to get killed...One of the supposed top canine specialist in the world believes in Alpha training he also says Chow are the stupidest breed there is and impossible to train (gee wonder why) so you can see where Red dragon is coming from, next he will be telling you to feed your family proplan. A breeder is the last person you want to be taking advice from unless you need advice on how to get rid of your Chow and where to buy next.

As I said all i'm trying to do is save your Chows home I have nothing to gain if you want to take advice fom red drgon more power to you and I pity your Chow. However he was right about your Chow possibly being in heat and not wanting to be bothered, SPCA offers free spaying and Neutering in some cities.

There is always a reason why a Chow or any dog bites and 99% of the time its brought on by human error and not taking the time to read about the breed they are adopting.

Lets clear one thing up before you get the wrong impression, spaying does not mean the dog will become more docile, females are not like males in that respect.

Jeff, I challenge you to find one person on this site or any other site that has had me contact them saying put your dog down so I can sell you one of mine. There have been many on here that have asked me about buying a dog, but I have not sold anyone on this site one of my dogs. You need to get over your petty stabs you take at me, you are wrong and that is all there is to it.

[Jeff&Peks]

Jeff, I challenge you to find one person on this site or any other site that has had me contact them saying put your dog down so I can sell you one of mine. There have been many on here that have asked me about buying a dog, but I have not sold anyone on this site one of my dogs. You need to get over your petty stabs you take at me, you are wrong and that is all there is to it.

"There have been many on here that have asked me about buying a dog"



Yep thats my point, Good thing they don't ask you about buying a Chow, you have a dog is a dog mentality just like the past owners of the other thousands of Chows in shelters dieing other then breeding your opinions of raising and feeding Chows is worthless. No matter what the post even a Chow dieing your the first one on the thread trying to push your breeding Advice.

Have you ever noticed the only people that listen to you are people that are just coming on the site, to a new person (potentail buyer) you sound like you really know what your talking about but after a week or so of your advice they find out your full of crap and ingore you. Your the first one to bring up breeding in this thread like you do all threads, what did breeding have to do with this topic.

[Desi]

My Cheyenne was terrible the first weeks after she went through her first heat.Attacked a poodle first (which I thought was because there was a treat on the floor) and the cat (for no reason at all) a couple of days later.
There were a couple of fights between her and her sister ,I ended those before any real damage was done.
Got the girls spayed 3 months later (Cinnamon hadn't been in heat yet but I wasn't going to wait too long and risk another hear for Chey,that's how bad she was) and things quieted down after that.
Alpha roll would be a big no no on Cheyenne,she's insecure enough as it is,I just got in between her and the other party.
I'd wait until 3 months after she was in heat and get her spayed.

[Red Dragon]

Jeff, I challenge you to find one person on this site or any other site that has had me contact them saying put your dog down so I can sell you one of mine. There have been many on here that have asked me about buying a dog, but I have not sold anyone on this site one of my dogs. You need to get over your petty stabs you take at me, you are wrong and that is all there is to it.

"There have been many on here that have asked me about buying a dog"



Yep thats my point, Good thing they don't ask you about buying a Chow, you have a dog is a dog mentality just like the past owners of the other thousands of Chows in shelters dieing other then breeding your opinions of raising and feeding Chows is worthless. No matter what the post even a Chow dieing your the first one on the thread trying to push your breeding Advice.

Have you ever noticed the only people that listen to you are people that are just coming on the site, to a new person (potentail buyer) you sound like you really know what your talking about but after a week or so of your advice they find out your full of crap and ingore you. Your the first one to bring up breeding in this thread like you do all threads, what did breeding have to do with this topic.

Shelter Shmelter!!!!

Get some glasses Jeff, the person that started the thread brought up breeding the dog. Or maybe you just need to get your head out of the sand?

Plenty of people on this site email me and PM me asking for advice, most of the time they don't say anything on this site because of you and the other bleeding heart liberals!

If I was Pekoe I would bite your dumb butt too, why not, there isn't any reprisal? I am waiting for her to bite one of the kids friends again and do more than tear their clothes off, can't wait to see you tell the judge she is just a Chow!

In case you haven't noticed there are problems with people getting insurance, finding homes, finding places to take their dogs, and dog bans all over the country, all as a result of poorly bred dogs and owners that can't control the poorly bred dogs.

[Jeff&Peks]

If I was Pekoe I would bite your dumb butt too, why not, there isn't any reprisal? I am waiting for her to bite one of the kids friends again and do more than tear their clothes off, can't wait to see you tell the judge she is just a Chow!

Looks like you have a long wait, 13 years of growling at kids and hasn't bit one yet, even though she has been stepped on, tripped over,run into, chased and had her tail and fur pulled a few times. as I said its all in the owner. Pekoe isn't a barn ornament like your Dawgs she is around people all day and night, never had a thing to worry about. I live in LA if Pekoe ever acually bite anyone especaly a Chow biting a kid or adult i would have a five mile long line of cops knocking at my door.

The girl you are referring to that Pekoe tore her dress is a 30 year old woman, not a kid, that charged into my room 30 minutes after pekoe had radiation treatments and was heavily sedated sleeping in front of the door. there is always a reason way a chow bites and its usually idiots like you, In farm talk I reckon your just plain ol brain dead and as usal always wrong.

If people are dumb enough to listen to you fine, you can sell them another Chow after they get rid of this one, I'm sure us rescue Nuts as you call us will find it a home.

[Red Dragon]

If I was Pekoe I would bite your dumb butt too, why not, there isn't any reprisal? I am waiting for her to bite one of the kids friends again and do more than tear their clothes off, can't wait to see you tell the judge she is just a Chow!

Looks like you have a long wait, 13 years of growling at kids and hasn't bit one yet, even though she has been stepped on, tripped over,run into, chased and had her tail and fur pulled a few times. as I said its all in the owner. Pekoe isn't a barn ornament like your Dawgs she is around people all day and night, never had a thing to worry about.

The girl you are referring to that Pekoe tore her dress is a 30 year old woman, not a kid, that charged into my room 30 minutes after pekoe had radiation treatments and was heavily sedated sleeping in front of the door. there is always a reason way a chow bites and its usually idiots like you, In farm talk I reckon your just plain ol brain dead and as usal always wrong.

If people are dumb enough to listen to you fine, you can sell them another Chow after they get rid of this one, I'm sure us rescue Nuts as you call us will find it a home.

Sorry, but I have only been bitten one time by a Chow, and that was when I got in between two that were fighting and going to fight to the death. I have never been bitten by one of my dogs otherwise, and one of my first Chows would have probably made Pekoe look like a saint!

[Jeff&Peks]

Pekoe is a saint, no argument there.

[chowfrnd88]

Like the others say, you'll have to pick and choose what advice to take. I will tell you that I am a zoologist specializing in animal behvior and a dog trainer. What Sam so kindly calls "bleeding heart liberals" with regards to animals is known by most us by another name: science. Like Jeff said, wild animal trainers have been using positive reinforcement techniques for years, for some reason it's taking some people a lot longer to get to that point with dogs. You are absoluetly right about this being unacceptable behavior, and can be downright scary. I've dealt with many "aggressive" dogs in the last year and there are ways that you can modify this behavior by letting your chow know that you mean no harm in any of your actions. This way you're changing the internal state of the chow, not just the outward symptoms like you change using aversive training. By the way, I seriously doubt that at this point if you continue the aplha rolls your chow will get better. Like Sam said, the animals that submit to the alpha roll are doing so out of fear, the animals who do not will never turst you to do it again (read: they get worse and will bite). It's misconception based on incomplete data collected during the 20's-40's. If an animal rolls on their back on their own it's a sign of submission, if one is forced on their backs, it's a fight, often to the death, so you can imagine what your chow is thinking when you force on her back. It is not a sign that you are in control but that you want a fight. I don't know why this is taking so long to cathc on in the general public, it's been around since the 70's. We can accept that vitamins keep you healthy, milk is good for your bones, the earth is not flat, but for some reason, we cannot accept even when pointed towards scientific fact, that every pet dog in the world is not plotting to take over our houses and that we can train them based on the way they interact with each other.Anyhow, you can certainly pm me if you would like and I can give you my cell phone number and we can chat about ways you can overcome this. Good luck and hang in there.

[Red Dragon]

Like the others say, you'll have to pick and choose what advice to take. I will tell you that I am a zoologist specializing in animal behvior and a dog trainer. What Sam so kindly calls "bleeding heart liberals" with regards to animals is known by most us by another name: science. Like Jeff said, wild animal trainers have been using positive reinforcement techniques for years, for some reason it's taking some people a lot longer to get to that point with dogs. You are absoluetly right about this being unacceptable behavior, and can be downright scary. I've dealt with many "aggressive" dogs in the last year and there are ways that you can modify this behavior by letting your chow know that you mean no harm in any of your actions. This way you're changing the internal state of the chow, not just the outward symptoms like you change using aversive training. By the way, I seriously doubt that at this point if you continue the aplha rolls your chow will get better. Like Sam said, the animals that submit to the alpha roll are doing so out of fear, the animals who do not will never turst you to do it again (read: they get worse and will bite). It's misconception based on incomplete data collected during the 20's-40's. If an animal rolls on their back on their own it's a sign of submission, if one is forced on their backs, it's a fight, often to the death, so you can imagine what your chow is thinking when you force on her back. It is not a sign that you are in control but that you want a fight. I don't know why this is taking so long to cathc on in the general public, it's been around since the 70's. We can accept that vitamins keep you healthy, milk is good for your bones, the earth is not flat, but for some reason, we cannot accept even when pointed towards scientific fact, that every pet dog in the world is not plotting to take over our houses and that we can train them based on the way they interact with each other.Anyhow, you can certainly pm me if you would like and I can give you my cell phone number and we can chat about ways you can overcome this. Good luck and hang in there.

I use positive training too, and there is no need to roll a dog unless they have done something to provoke that. In fact in his case, the dog provoked the fight, and my response would be to roll the dog in order to make the dog understand it cannot win the fight. Just remember the dog was the provoker to start with. Nobody should just roll a dog for no reason, as you said the dog would not trust you then, as it has no idea why you are rolling it. Go walk in a cage with a lion and try to be nice when it attacks you and see how far that will get you!

[Jeff&Peks]

The Myth of Alpha

One result of the theory was the creation of a certain mindset in dog trainers, which has resulted in some pretty horrific training advice. For example, "How hard should you hit your dog?" ask the Monks of New Skete in How to Be Your Dog's Best Friend: Their answer? "If she doesn't yelp in pain, you haven't hit her hard enough." They also recommend throwing your dog on her back and yelling "No!" in her face to correct bad behavior. This is known as the alpha wolf rollover and is supposedly what alpha wolves do to enforce their authority. (The monks have since backed down on this technique, calling it dangerous to the handler, though still ignoring the fact that it's just plain mean to the dog.

The Myth of Alpha
http://forum.chowchow.org/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=11718

[Auddymay]

ENOUGH! The next post that does not address the concerns of weenis directly will cause a split. Please! Stop arguing training techniques, and offer the advice you think could help, then shut the hell up! This back and forth is beyond tedious. Thank you all in advance for your cooperation.

[Red Dragon]

Ummm...Auddymay....He was using the alpha roll on his dog, so it had everything to do with the topic. If you don't want us to argue whether it's right or wrong, just say so, but wouldn't that be abusing our freedom of speech and our right to make a decision, and wouldn't that keep us from giving him the information he needs to solve his problem with his dog?

[momtobear]

I have a queastion. Since we only had the one chow bear and he was always so good we never had to correct him. but I always heard that if they snaped at you or something like that to pop them on the nose and tell them no. Is that wrong?

[Jeff&Peks]

What's enough? Just because its not done your way " Bless you for kicking your Chow out and don't forget to post pictures" No one ever left the topic so go Enough somewhere else.

[quote="weenis"]We have an 8 month old female Chow Chow named "Zoe"

I took Zoe and put her on her back to "submit". Kind of like what the dog whisperer does. Then when she's relaxed and fully submissive, I'll let her up. Well when i submitted her yesterday, she attacked me. I have made sure in raising her that she's not ever touched in any harmful manner, so the following may disturb some of you.(quote]

[Red Dragon]

I have a queastion. Since we only had the one chow bear and he was always so good we never had to correct him. but I always heard that if they snaped at you or something like that to pop them on the nose and tell them no. Is that wrong?

Well, I can say for sure I have seen a bunch of Chows smacked on the nose when they snapped, I even had one many years back that I did that to, and I can tell you she just snapped again, so we went back and forth a half a dozen times or so until she got distracted by sneezing. I can tell you that hitting Chows will get you absolutely nowhere. I have had those that behaved perfectly their whole lives, unfortunately that is not the case with this particular dog.

[KathrynH]

If she has changed just in the last two weeks it may be a health issue. It sounds like her reactions are totally out of character, definitely go to a vet and get her checked out! It wouldn't hurt to check right?

[Auddymay]

Ummmmm...don't play a dolt. I understand full well what is being discussed. BTW, when I read weenis had a baby due in a few months, I figured she was female. It is not the agreeing or disagreeing with the alpha roll that is the problem If you wish to discuss the alpha roll in detail and have a back and forth with folks that disagree with you, start a new thread. That is not what weenis needs. She already knows that some here flat out disagree with it, while others see a limited use. If you really want to play dumb, I would be glad to go through and edit out the superfluous banter...though, once I erase there is no retrieval.

[momtobear]

You know I think Kathern is right, i think we are going about this wrong. think she could have developed a hot spot?