When do the noses of cream chows turn pink?

[ciaobella]

Ok, that's my burning question.
The reason I ask is that when I first got Sophie, she still had a black nose. "The Book" said cream chows lose their black noses upon reaching maturity, and this is why they are not considered "show quality". I don't give a rip about black noses being standard, but I would like to be able to better estimate her age.
I see that Chi-Ching went pink within a year. Can I get a ball park figure from you other Cream owners as to when yours did?

I love the growing up pix of Chingers since he is so similar to Sophie. I didn't get to have her as a puppy, kind of makes me wistful.

[Brisco]

I believe if you read the AKC standard for the Chow that Cream chows are an accepted color and are show quality, just not if there nose isn't black, the only accepted color other than slate in the case of a blue Chow. In other words your Cream Chows nose may not and should not change color at all.

[Auddymay]

This was a subject of great controversy at another forum I belong to that has alot of show people. It got kinda ugly when I offered an example of a Champion chow of another member having a black nose, and the original poster basically said the chow of my example had a 'majic marker' treated nose. Well, the owner of said chow saw it:chaos ensued.

Most of these breeders agreed though, that the nose leather turns pinker by the age of 2. Also, there was some discussion about changing the standard for cream chow's nose color by the AKC. I gather there has been some formal discussion, but changing standards aren't done in haste, so who knows!

[kingalls]

Mr. N's nose began turing pink within the first year...at the same time his tongue was becoming more blue. As a pup he had a little "racing stripe" of blue down the middle of his tongue...at a little over 2 years now, his tongue is about 85% blue and the rest is still pink.
Karen

[Brisco]

I'm not arguing the point just pasting straight from the AKC recognized standard. Which is only for the U.S. I believe.

Disqualifications
Drop ear or ears. A drop ear is one which breaks at any point from its base to its tip or which is not carried stiffly erect but lies parallel to the top of the skull.
Nose spotted or distinctly other color than black, except in blue Chows which may have solid blue or slate noses.
The top surface or edges of the tongue red or pink or with one or more spots of red or pink.

Approved October 10, 2005
Effective January 1, 2006

[kiwani]

It can happen as early as a few months of age, depending on how much deliberate breeding of dilutes to dilutes was done in the bloodline. Since the chemical factory of hormones plays a role in melanin, it's variable.

The red-yellow pigment in the faded noses doesn't offer as much protection from sun damage as the brown-black melanin does, so extra care is needed to reduce exposure to the strongest rays, and some use of natural product sun-blocks is recommended.

[Samorrathis]

Nanuk is almost 13 months and his nose has lightened but it is not shown signs of any pink yet. Kiwani if you happen to find some name brands of natural sun block could you please post them. We always provide plenty of shade for Nanuk but wouldn't want a sun burned nose just in case.

[Elaina]

Max-A-Million's (Chow/golden mix, mostly Chow) nose began to turn pink back in January. He was nearly two years old. Because he is a mix, we expected his nose to change. Max's mouth is almost completely black, save for a very small pink dot near the tip of his tongue.

[Guest]

Ciaobella,

I would like to see some pictures of your Sophie if you don't mind.......Chi-Ching is 7 1/2 months old now. His nose has turned since he was just a baby.

Here he is when I picked him out at 3 weeks old........


Here he is at 8 weeks, when we got him.... you can see his nose already started to turn........


Here he is at 12 weeks and 5 days with a almost completely changed nose.......


Here he is a few weeks ago.......


And a few days ago..........

[tekendall]

Zoey is almost 11 months old. Her nose is still pretty dark, but not jet black like it was when she was younger.

[ciaobella]

Thanks for the response! I suspected Sophie was probably no older than two when I got her, although the vet thought she was in the six range according to her teeth. As I previously posted, she had no doubt lived on a pretty wretched diet of scraps before I took her in (I remember finding an entire pizza on the lawn with all the toppings neatly picked off), and I tend to think that had more to do with it than age.

I'm glad I could post this question here, I wouldn't dream of posting it at any other site since such topics seem to degenerate into pointless slapfights. I like a cream chow "bunny nose", but others don't always see it that way. It was pretty startling to me when Sophie went pink in the first year I had her... I thought I was the worst mom ever, and had done something wrong.

I hope to be able to figure out one of the hosting sites so I can post some pix of Sophie soon. It will probably help when I get a digital camera, though I do have a few photos scanned in.

Sophie has the same facial expression as Chingers, the soulful eyes and that look of perpetual surprise that the blackness on the muzzle gives them. Such sweetness.

[Shane]

Gennerallycream chows have a pink colored nose.(That is why you don't see much cream chows in the show ring).

I have seen crems that start changing the color of their nose as a early as 6- 10 weeks. Usually at the first year of age they are fully turned.


Its usually a very active gene in the cream that causes the nose to turn that color. I was told by a breeder that out of an average of the cream pups born, 10% have a jet black nose while the others turn color to a liver shade.

Shane

[kiwani]

Re: "Kiwani if you happen to find some name brands of natural sun block could you please post them."

---

One of the most effective sunblocks is zinc oxide. That's the white cream type used by lifeguards, etc.
The problem with those zinc oxide brands though, is that they also contain titanium dioxide, petroleum products and other chemicals - ingredients you'd want to avoid on a dog's nose, because of the licking factor. There are zinc oxide sunsceens for dogs online, but they don't list all ingredients. There are other holistic sunsceens for dogs online too, but they don't contain zinc oxide and aren't very broad ranging or effective as sunscreens (they would block only about 25%).

The easiest solution is just to buy zinc oxide powder online. It's used for making home-made natural diaper rash ointments, deodorants, etc., as well as sunscreen, and is very inexpensive. You'd just mix a small amount with water or a food grade oil. There are such holistic formula brand sunscreens available for humans, but they also contain herbal scents like lavender, rose, ylang ylang, etc. Those types might be fine for just Nanuk's shaved neck area.

You could also look at holistic brands of diaper rash ointment - those contain zinc oxide, are petroleum product free (no mineral oil, no petroleum jelly), but might have some herbal scent like lavender or calendula (marigold). If I find a product that I think is close to being perfect, I'll post the info.

[ngraham]

This was a subject of great controversy at another forum I belong to that has alot of show people. It got kinda ugly when I offered an example of a Champion chow of another member having a black nose, and the original poster basically said the chow of my example had a 'majic marker' treated nose. Well, the owner of said chow saw it:chaos ensued.

Most of these breeders agreed though, that the nose leather turns pinker by the age of 2. Also, there was some discussion about changing the standard for cream chow's nose color by the AKC. I gather there has been some formal discussion, but changing standards aren't done in haste, so who knows!

Yup Auddymay, I remember that. LOL I don't know much, really anything about breeding chow, dilutes, whatever. But to me, it just goes to reason that a cream is not gonna have a black nose.

[LEO's mum]

LEO in avatar picture at 9 1/2wks-ish had beautiful black nose like a button, but started loosing it when we started going on longer walks. The winter sun was strong enough to bleech her nose and bronze my face and hands...so that must have been at around 3m/s, after she had all the shots...
My breeder lady told me... "AKC breed specification is revised every 5yrs, but the chow comittee or community couldn't get their act together and let it pass once again w/o changing the wording on the nose colour bit"...I believe she mentioned that missed chance was last year.... "We've gotta wait another 5yrs to catch up w/ some European countries"....or something to that effect....

[Brisco]

Catch up to European countries? Changing a breeds standard because it is easier to breed them with what has always been considered a fault should not be considered "catching up" if 10% of cream Chows {as someone stated earlier), have black noses then only 10% of cream Chows should be bred, I believe that this is called responsible breeding. Sure, health issues are extremely important but achieving and maintaining a breeds standard is supposed to be every breeders goal, not to change it for convienence. This isn't to say that a Chow with a different colored nose isn't still a great dog and wonderful pet but that is what it was decided many years ago, that it should stay a pet and not a show dog. There are to many other breeds that are white or other light colors that have no problem maintaining black noses, it comes down to the quality of the breeding program. Sure the AKC may change it one day but until then it should be respected and strived for. If pink tongues started showing up regularly would you want that changed also? And if not, what's the difference.

[kiwani]

Brisco wrote: "Changing a breeds standard because it is easier to breed them with what has always been considered a fault should not be considered "catching up" if 10% of cream Chows {as someone stated earlier), have black noses then only 10% of cream Chows should be bred, I believe that this is called responsible breeding."

---

Exactly. 'Designer' bred Chows with a melanin defect shouldn't be accepted as models of the Chow standard, because they need extra care dealing with ultraviolet rays.

[Shane]

Catch up to European countries? Changing a breeds standard because it is easier to breed them with what has always been considered a fault should not be considered "catching up" if 10% of cream Chows {as someone stated earlier), have black noses then only 10% of cream Chows should be bred, I believe that this is called responsible breeding. Sure, health issues are extremely important but achieving and maintaining a breeds standard is supposed to be every breeders goal, not to change it for convienence. This isn't to say that a Chow with a different colored nose isn't still a great dog and wonderful pet but that is what it was decided many years ago, that it should stay a pet and not a show dog. There are to many other breeds that are white or other light colors that have no problem maintaining black noses, it comes down to the quality of the breeding program. Sure the AKC may change it one day but until then it should be respected and strived for. If pink tongues started showing up regularly would you want that changed also? And if not, what's the difference.

I agree with you all the way. The entire purpose of dog shows it to preserve breeding stock. So that the Chow Chow of today would stay the same 100 years from now. If you go changing the standard to be convenient to other breeders then what is the purpose of having a standard anyways if the dog can look like what ever?

If group A have chows with pink tongues, group B have long legged chows, Group C have chows with a snipey muzzle, Group D chows with tail carried not on back etc. etc. Then they'll want to promote the standard to be changed. Just say if all of them are to succeed *remember people are to breed to the standard*. So later on down all those thing that were considered flaws are accepted and the chow of tomorrow would look like a Collie or something.

So, to have the standard change would only be to benefit man, and not the chows really. Krillan my eldest chow had several flaws with him. His tail is carried above his back and not on it, he has angulation in his hind legs, he has some pnk on his tongue. So then I should ban to gether with a group of people who have similar issues and protest that the standard is to be change?

Shane

[LEO's mum]

The Kennel Club on nose colour: "Nose, large and wide in all cases, black (with exception of cream and near white in which case a light-coloured nose permissible, and in blues and fawns a self-coloured nose)."

The rules or any rule for the matter of argument, are set by men, and can & must be allowed to change. Chows when first brought into England by merchants must have been quite different from the chows we know today. I am not to say that the UK standards are better than American, but the Brits are probably more practical. Also I am sure the Brits care for the betterment of the breed as Americans.

I would rather see a light-coloured nose rather than a tampered black nose, for the sake of chows, but heck, that's just me.

[Shane]

Notice all standards are not really the exact same although they maybe similar. I have only studied 2 breed standards; American and the Australian. With my comparison I have notced that the American standard is much more strict and doesn't tolerated nothing much.

I said that because one spot on of pink leads to a disqualification. So to me this is telling me that they are tolerating nothing less than a fully colored tongue. It also says the darker the better.

Shane

[Guest]

The standard in Canada which is set by the Chow Club(as are all standards) allows the lighter nose color, so here, in my mind is where it gets confusing, say you have a grand champion in Canada, and you bring it to the U.S. and it is considered infurior? So, which is it? Is Canada wrong for allowing the colored nose? How do we know who originally set the standard?
New colors of other breeds are constantly being added. I believe as long as the dog can do its job as it was originally intended(physically, not nessecarily doing it!)I am sure that the Chinese never considered the color of the dogs nose when they were eating them and using their fur. Also, I am sure that someone was 'less scared' of a Chow when they were used as guardian animals because one had a lighter colored nose. I believe that there should be some exceptions made in breed standards. As long as it does not conflict against body structure, temperment or health. JMO, as always

[Shane]

So, which is it? Is Canada wrong for allowing the colored nose? How do we know who originally set the standard?

say you have a grand champion in Canada, and you bring it to the U.S. and it is considered infurior? So, which is it?

Umm, honestly I see Canada as neither wrong nor right, they have their standards of upholding what a chow should be like. America have their own standards of upholding what a chow should be like, I see them as neither wrong or right. (Although I prefer the American Standard because their standards are more strict and is giving a specific image of what is wanted.) I saw through this before and what I am doing is studying chow breed standard in different countries and looking for similarities in what they like and dislike. So, coming to a conclusion I would be able to produce a chow that can be a champion where ever it goes into the world.

Shane

[ciaobella]

I can see the virtue of maintaining the breed standard insofar as a lighter nose is a health concern (thanks Kiwani, for your great sunscreen tip!). Of course, the standard is still a moot point in my case.
I'm so happy to be a part of this forum. There are so many passionate and knowledgeable people here, and great points to be made on either side of the issue.

[Shane]

I would like to say having a cream in a breeding programme has its benefits. If one was to have a sable the cream would clear up the coat as the cream genes make the coats look more "cleaner". Having a cream in a breeding programme has its benefits (once bred with a cinnamon or red chow). Over the years while having a cream in your gene pool, breeding it generations down the road (and the pups) you maybe able to produce a cream that has its black pigmentation in intact as it may take on some of the red and cinnamon genes for nose pigments.

Shane

[rcol1961]

I got my Polly at six months, from the breeder, and her nose was almost totally pink by that time. I saw pictures of her when she was about 8 wks, and her nose was still black at that time. So I would say sometime between 2 and 5 months is when the transformation takes place.